Wednesday, January 19, 2011
Do liberals and conservatives share the same goals?
The fashionable answer is yes and I've been hearing alot of this lately but it really is a rather vague statement and is it even true? I'm gonna go with a no. Do liberals and conservatives both agree on you keeping more of your hard-earned money? Do liberals and conservatives look at the wealthy in the same way especially regarding the previous question? Do liberals and conservatives view Big Business and Labor the same way? I daresay liberals have a problem with Walmart and conservatives want you to work your ass off for even peanuts because by so doing you're setting yourself up for a mansion and Lamberghini down the road (HAH!!!) Do liberals and conservatives share the same goal of making abortion rare? Again the fashionable answer is yes but just saw on Yahoo News abortions increasing in major cities and in NYC it's almost like an Olympic Event so what have liberals done for us lately?......do liberals and conservatives view your right to self-defense the same way? Does this include the right to bear a firearm? Do liberals and conservatives view RACE the same way? (do liberals ever ask blacks why they commit so much crime?) our nation's security? war & peace? the cops? God and faith in general? SEX? (that there deserves its own blog) and so on down the list. Name any political issue and is the basic goal the same? Of course your personal health not to mention health care deserves another blog but I'm gonna go with libertarians just wanna be left alone and liberals would rather you eat an apple instead of a Funny Bone and seem rather obsessed about it at times. The same goals? I just don't see it.
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Same ends in many instances just different means. And, in some instances the means are in fact the end.
ReplyDeleteI think you're leaving out part of it. What I tend to hear a lot is that 'liberals and conservatives don't share the same goals because liberals hate America and want to destroy it.' Which is, obviously, completely untrue, but it makes great press and is a simple way to demonize the opposition.
ReplyDeleteSoap's essentially right; in most cases the ends are the same, just differing ways to get there.
But it is the getting there that is the most important thing, and the liberal way is so completely wrong. Conservatism is about personal freedom, personal responsibility and actually progressing the world by giving incentives which lead to personal successes and our lives improving because of it. The liberal way is actually regressive, they want the state to be like your mommy who will take care of you, so it is like being babied for the rest of your life.
ReplyDeleteI'll take the grown-up way, thank you very much.
(p.s. liberals do hate America, if they loved it, they wouldn't be trying to change it)
(p.s. liberals do hate America, if they loved it, they wouldn't be trying to change it)
ReplyDeleteSo it was America-haters that finally made 'all men are created equal' actually enforceable by law.. and got women a vote.. and made it illegal for your six year old to work sixteen hour days six days a week...
...yeah, if they REALLY loved America, we'd still all be paying taxes on the people we owned... cause that's the American way!!
What happens to water that doesn't move? It gets stagnant and full of all kinds of nasty shit that breeds diseases. In order to keep the water from getting stagnated it has to move and be oxygenated.
Same thing with a society. It has to progress and grow. Just because something's 'always been done this way' doesn't mean it was right to do it. Unless, of course, you long for the 'good old days' of slavery and voting restricted to white, property-owning, Protestant males.
First of all, liberalism does not make society move, it is what makes people stagnate, because they have no incentive to actually work. So, what was that about nasty shit when you have stagnation? Are you saying you think people who produce are good and therefore should not be penalized by taxes for their progress? Congratulations! You think like a conservative! Liberalism does breed nasty shit!
ReplyDeleteSecond, the 3/5 clause was a compromise, because Democrats didn't want blacks to be counted at all. So, what was your point about restrictive white males?
Third, any amendments to the Constitution that is consistent with the Constitution is okay, but willy nilly government programs that take away our personal freedoms are anti-American because they are not Constitutional.
Glad to see you actually think more like a Conservative, Saty!
"Conservatism is about personal freedom, personal responsibility and actually progressing the world by "giving incentives" which lead to personal successes and our lives improving because of it.
ReplyDeleteEmphasis mine of course but this is the crux of it for and why I don't consider myself a "conservative". Classicaly liberal or modern day libertarian yes but conservative???....eh no.
This, in short, is the present Obverse/Reverse side of the same coin of today. Government "giving/providing incentives".
Soapster, let me clarify, the incentives come from the market, not the government. The government should get the hell out of the way of actual progress!
ReplyDeleteSaty: "Soap's essentially right; in most cases the ends are the same, just differing ways to get there."
ReplyDeleteActually I don't agree with soap and was surprised that he said it. Just what is IT that we ALL agree on? Differing ways to get there, just WHERE are we going?
According to your original statement, Beth, (p.s. liberals do hate America, if they loved it, they wouldn't be trying to change it), every change America's seen since 1776 was instigated and engineered by a liberal who hated America. Otherwise, if they loved it, they wouldn't have tried to change it.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of your comment I found to be mostly distraction from the point, so I'm sticking with your own words above, and the logic they represent.
According to your statement, loving America means you don't change it.
So we all ought to be living just the way we were in 1776, owning as many human beings as you could afford and voting rights only for the selected few.
LOL "The rest of your comment I found to be mostly distraction from the point, so I'm sticking with your own words above, and the logic they represent.
ReplyDeleteBut of course they are distracting, because you cannot refute them!
Did you read where I said "any amendments to the Constitution that is consistent with the Constitution is okay, but willy nilly government programs that take away our personal freedoms are anti-American because they are not Constitutional."?
The changes (called Amendments) that you mentioned ARE consistent with the Constitution, so they don't take away from anyone's rights in making those Amendments and actually adds to them!
The things that liberals want to change in our country DO take away our rights, and that is NOT what America is about.
Seriously, if people could understand this, we'd be a heck of a lot better off!
Government PROTECTS rights, it does not GUARANTEE them or PROVIDE them.
This is why Z-man's original point that we don't want the same thing is very true.
(I did notice that nobody has been able to say the things that we agree on yet).
ReplyDeleteYou may or may not recall that when people fought for civil rights, for taking away slavery, for giving the vote to women, that those people WERE considered to be 'destroying the culture of America'. They were considered to be anti-American, to be destroying American Family Values and to basically be bringing about the Apocalypse by insinuating that black folks were really and truly actual people who deserved to be treated like actual people, and that women were bright enough not only to understand politics but to have an opinion on it.
ReplyDelete'America Hater' is a term that people use to describe people who advocate changes they don't personally agree with.
I think both conservatives and liberals want everyone to have health care only the means advocated differ. I think liberals and conservatives have vastly different views about how much of your hard-earned money you can take home, that there's a greatly different goal. The same goals, depends on what you're talking about but I don't think you can make an across-the-board blanket statement that we all want the same things.
ReplyDeleteYou may or may not recall that when people fought for civil rights, for taking away slavery, for giving the vote to women, that those people WERE considered to be 'destroying the culture of America'.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall that, Saty, I am not that old, where did you get that notion?
'America Hater' is a term that people use to describe people who advocate changes they don't personally agree with.
Is that like how the term "vitriolic rhetoric" is used to describe anything said by someone you don't personally agree with?
I think both conservatives and liberals want everyone to have health care only the means advocated differ.
ReplyDeleteOnly if a person wants health care, it is not for you, me or the president of the United States to say what everyone wants or doesn't want.
Then if you want it, it is up to you to get it.
to you title's question-
ReplyDeleteNO-
Hope you have a great week--
Carol-CS
that would be..
ReplyDeleteto YOUR title's question...
NO
C-CS
"Only if a person wants health care, it is not for you, me or the president of the United States to say what everyone wants or doesn't want."
ReplyDelete[Applause]
"Actually I don't agree with soap and was surprised that he said it."
ReplyDeleteHow's that?
Conservatives and Liberals very likely want their children to have a good education, they want their children to live in a safe and clean environment with adequate food and clean drinking water.
Again, same ends, different means, and in some instances the end(s) are the means.
Some goals are the same of course soap but not all and that's my point.
ReplyDeleteWe're all individuals Z. It only stands to reason. Nothing really profound about stating the obvious.
ReplyDeleteBut as an across-the-board statement it's not true. Are the goals of capitalism and communism the same?
ReplyDeleteNo, the goals are not the same, communism wants to knock people down to get everyone on the same level, capitalism sees the benefit in rewarding those who work hard, produce, or otherwise have something of value to give others, and so get rewarded differently based on the market-driven value of their production or service.
ReplyDelete"and so get rewarded differently based on the market-driven value of their production or service."
ReplyDelete..that's for damn sure!
"No where does pay seem more out of whack than at Goldman Sachs. The financial services firm has struggled with regulators and profits in 2010. In July, Goldman paid a $550 million fine to the Securities and Exchange Commission to settle charges that it fraudulently mislead investors in a bond deal tied to subprime mortgages. Goldman has suffered in the market as well. Fewer client transactions, and a weaker stock market, has caused the firm's trading revenue to tumble. Analysts expect Goldman's earnings to fall 26% in 2010. But is that going to stop Goldman from boosting its year-end reward pay? It appears not. So far this year, the firm has set aside 43% of its revenue for salary and benefits. Based on that payout, Goldman employees are expected to receive a collective $16.8 billion, or nearly $500,000 per employee, which is 4% more than the firm paid out a year ago."
"But as an across-the-board statement it's not true..."
ReplyDeleteAgain, nothing profound there. Most, if not all, blanketed statements or generalizations are.
The only reason I bring it up soap is because I'm hearing alot of it lately and I want to correct the record or at least add my .02. Listened to Hannity on the radio recently and he had on some liberal Democratic Congressman or Senator and he said he and Sean and libs and cons in general both have the same goals and I just have to question that before it becomes a part of Conventional Wisdom and you know how I feel about Conventional Wisdom:)
ReplyDeleteFuck if they don't have the same goals. Jesse Ventura said it most succinctly. Washington politics is exactly like professional wrestling. They make like they hate each other in front of the cameras but behind closed doors and shit they all eat at the same places and drink at the same watering holes. Hannity is right there with them. He's a statist pig too. Remember how he loved Rudy Guiliani so??? Guiliani is straight up mobster.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to argue with you there soap but I guess my point is that true conservatives have different goals than true liberals so I was speaking theoretically of course. Now if Hannity wanted to get rid of the Fed and go back to the gold standard then I'd listen.
ReplyDeleteThen he'd have to admit he was all wrong about Ron Paul who he vilified during 2008. I don't see that hack having the integrity to do that. Hell, I'm still waiting for his ass to be waterboarded.
ReplyDelete