Why atheism falls short
Had this thought this morning. My Dad served in the Navy during WW2 and I was conceived well after the war. Now if he had perished the atheist would say I wouldn't be here right now but I think most folks would simply say I'd have a different Dad. Now when my father's sperm cell united with my mother's egg that led to ME but if a different sperm cell of his had done the trick would I still be here? Again most people would say I'd still be ME but would have black hair and brown eyes maybe instead of blonde hair and green eyes, maybe I'd be shorter too. If you backed an atheist into a corner over this he might be forced to conclude you had only a 1 in a million chance of coming into existence since that one sperm cell that united with your mother's egg led to YOU but that would in effect make us all into a bunch of walking Lottos. The math doesn't add up, this science of probability that the godless would be forced to fall back on. So if my Dad had sacrificed his life in WW2 and I still would have been born in some form that'd point to Somebody being in charge. Likewise since he survived his tour of duty if another sperm cell of my Dad's had united with my Mom's egg and I still would have come into existence that all points to some type of principle of consciousness at work, the existence of some sort of soul dynamic and ultimately to Somebody being in charge. There's a spiritual, mystical sense to it all even if the rest of Life doesn't make sense. I just want the Bill Mahers and the Christopher Hitchenses to explain the Math. Religion isn't irrational, atheism is.
I'm not sure I understand, I mean I think God knit us in the womb, so then each egg/sperm union is unique and there could only be one YOU and thank God your Dad survived and you came into being I say.
ReplyDelete"Now if he had perished the atheist would say I wouldn't be here right now but I think most folks would simply say I'd have a different Dad."
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that an atheist would say that?
You're talking about biology, chance, and probability.
Atheists don't believe in gods. But they put their trust in biology and what humans have discovered so far.
Maybe you think that no matter which sperm and which egg united, the YOU that is essentially, chromosonally, YOU would have happened?
More complicated than that.
There is not one shred of evidence that some disembodied entity produced the YOU that is YOU from your father's sperm and your mother's egg.
But you can turn to biology and find volumes of evidence to explain how it happened.
Faith is defined as the belief in something for which there is no evidence.
And you think that's rational.
Science REQUIRES evidence before it makes a claim.
I don't understand why you're trying to tie the two together. But if you are, Atheism and its reliance on evidence, not faith, is more science friendly than is religion.
Many atheists tend to be arrogant and assert their beliefs as somehow being more rational than those of believers when it is the other way around. If you're walking along on the beach and see a tv set you assume rightfully that an intelligent creature put the thing together, not the wind or the elements. The human eye with its lenses and various parts that make the miracle of human sight possible could not have happened by chance or random collisions. There is too much order in the Universe for it to be random and the onus is rather on the atheist to prove otherwise not the believer. I believe in tolerance for atheists as well but to act like their belief system is somehow based on the evidence is not the way I see it and you seem to make the assertion Shaw or maybe it's my reading that Science is somehow against the claims of religion when the two should work in tandem. Science is fine as far as it goes but religion goes further and ties it all together, basically says that the Material is not all that exists.
ReplyDelete"Now if he had perished the atheist would say I wouldn't be here right now but I think most folks would simply say I'd have a different Dad."
ReplyDelete"Why do you think that an atheist would say that?"
Because an atheist by definition does not believe in anything beyond the Material and so if my Dad had perished in WW2 there would have been no cosmological, no spiritual principle at work to bring me into being from another Dad. In other words I had my shot and my lottery failed. Atheism is not very inspiring and really cannot explain a whole lot if anything at all.
"Faith is defined as the belief in something for which there is no evidence. And you think that's rational."
This blog will have to be read a few times (carefully) to get the gist. I am not talking about the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich but First Principles. HOW do you explain consciousness? your awareness, your knowledge of yourself, how did it come into being? That's the science of the soul, not gray matter and it's not necessarily religious in a narrow sectarian sense but philosophical. Philosophers have been asking these questions since time began, their tool is reason but it just happens that religion and philosophy intersect alot. You are you and nobody else, he or she is he or she and nobody else and so far Science can only explain this in a biological, material sense (e.g. the color of your eyes, your height) but cannot handle the nature of existence. Philosophy/religion simply makes sense of it all.
Beth: "So then each egg/sperm union is unique
ReplyDeleteutterly true,
"and there could only be one YOU"
You're speaking biologically here. YOU could still be YOU but with different genetic characteristics. What the atheist would have us believe since there's no larger spiritual principle at work is that we had a 1 in million shot at coming into existence as US and nobody else (I'm speaking of the total YOU here not just your physical self) and so that if a different sperm cell from your father Beth united with your mother's egg you as the total Beth would never have come into existence. I say you would have but with simply different physical characteristics. Your soul would still be there. The randomness of atheism simply makes no mathematical sense.
"and thank God your Dad survived and you came into being as I say"
So what you're saying is I never would have come into existence but for the purely random events of war. I tend to disagree.
This deserves its own part:
ReplyDeleteShaw: "There is not one shred of evidence that some disembodied entity produced the YOU that is YOU from your father's sperm and your mother's egg."
Au contraire as it does point to some spiritual, cosmological principle at work since the atheist would have us believe that millions of us came into existence through sheer chance, that the right one-in-a-million sperm cell found its way to the right egg and we resulted as a result. Millions of walking Lottos, from a mathematical perspective that's absurd. Also the whole process of reproduction, the whole blueprint for the ensuing miraculous events, the genetics involved, WHO invented all this? Where'd that genius blueprint come from? sheer Chance? There is more than a shred of evidence for Something Shaw call it what you will.
I will need to rethink because it does come down to the soul and I guess I never thought about a soul and does it have unique DNA or is that just the body that does?
ReplyDeleteI am Conservative and I am pro - life.
ReplyDeleteAbortion should be an option only in rarest of the rare cases...
You Shouldn't end a life just because you were stupid enough not to use protection...
Beth when you get the gist of what I'm saying you will find it's the most profound thing you've ever realized and it proves the existence of God. To recap:
ReplyDelete--When your father's sperm cell united with your mother's egg the union led to YOU. IF another sperm cell of your Dad's had united with your mother's egg instead would YOU have still come into existence? OR was the fact that you came into existence really a 1 in a million longshot absolutely dependent on that one original particular sperm cell? That one sperm cell out of the millions your Dad produced in his life, that one and only that one would have led to YOU and no other sperm cell of his would have done this??? Multiply this across the billions and billions in the world today and if you don't believe in a Higher Intelligence you're forced to rely upon a mathematical absurdity.
MY point -- YOU would have come into existence whether it was that particular sperm cell of your Dad's or another of his because there is a non-material principle at work here guiding the whole process. Now the atheist or the scientist believes in nothing beyond the material realm but that leaves us with the conclusion that we are all 1 in a million longshots.
Some call it the God Particle or something, that underlying thing that makes sense of it all, that initiates the process. It's the most profound thing I've ever realized in my whole life and it goes beyond faith. It's math and probability applied to the question of WHY are we here?
There is a principle of consciousness at work here and I'm not talking about a Christian God or a Hindu God or a Muslim God. All that's an open question but what's not an open question is is there a higher intelligence or consciousness in all of this. Now many liberals confuse (deliberately?) Creationism and Intelligent Design but they're really not the same thing. While I'm not a fan of evolution I'd like to know how evolution itself has evolved that if evolution exists then God can't exist. WHY have Science and Religion become these implacable enemies down through the centuries? People here have brought up the subject of abortion in relation to this thread and I was gonna get to that but I think a big reason why people don't want to believe in a God is this -- HOW could God be for abortion if He's in charge of the whole process?? It bothers people.
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting (as the Greek philosophers, early
ReplyDeleteChristian thinkers like Origen and current Mormon
theology) that your particular soul preexisted and was awaiting your zygote? Or some other cosmological phenomenon?
Biologically speaking, we need consider that a million to one odds are
not very formidable for simple nature: through no fault of your own you have
a million x a million eukaryotic cells in your bod, Z-man..over a trillion. Beth's inquiry regarding soul DNA is thoughtful; IMO, the soul is typically regarded as purely spiritual and would not have any biological properties. Confusing and profound, with snippets of biology, spirituality, mysticism, mind, matter, perception...and yes Z-man...sex.
First off the math doesn't make sense and math is a hard science. Call it what you will BB (and I miss your absence lately but I just knew the esoteric would get you back) but I just find it passing strange that I would have come into existence only by the fusion of ONE particular sperm cell and ONE particular egg cell and no other sperm cell out of the millions produced by my Dad would do. The trouble with atheism and science in general is they don't posit a realm beyond the simply material. This is why I've found the recent discussion of the God Particle so promising, it shows scientists being more open-minded and inquisitive not to mention philosophical, finally asking the Bigger Questions.
ReplyDeleteI'm coming at this more from the angle that our souls pre-existed in the Mind of God or that Higher Intelligence, more of an Idea at the time that through this Plan you would eventually come into existence but it's interesting that the Masons, yes those rational and enlightened Freemasons we've heard so much about use the word the Grand Architect of the Universe. Seems there's some type of First Principle many folks as divergent as Masons and Christians, Hindus and Muslims agree on, common ground if you will. Well it's off to Church and then libraries closed tomorrow so I'm gonna ponder until Monday.
ReplyDeleteSo many things come to mind, I hope I don't sound like I am rambling. But take for example, if God has a Plan and so you and I and yes, even Shaw and Saty need to come into existence somehow, through some woman's egg and some man's sperm, somewhere in the world, then what about babies who are aborted? Or for that reason, miscarriages happen, did that soul just take temporary residence in some baby then later after its death find another body inside some other womb? I dunno, it does sound like predetermination, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteSome Lib on this board said:
ReplyDelete""Now if he had perished the atheist would say I wouldn't be here right now but I think most folks would simply say I'd have a different Dad."
If you think I might be laughing at that...it's a very good possibility.
And if that thought makes you angry...then it's a certainty!!
Z-man wrote that, mr. malcontent guy.
ReplyDeleteThe joke is on you.
I also had thoughts today about the concept of unique people, and I don't think that our souls have DNA, but I do think that each life that begins in the womb does have unique DNA and a unique soul, which is why I believe that life begins at conception.
ReplyDeleteIf there are any blogging hippies out there on acid maybe they can understand this stuff. Again:
ReplyDeleteBETH, you are Beth, you have consciousness, you are unique. I find it disturbing the idea that we are the result of some Sperm Lottery. Doesn't it make you uncomfortable that if that sperm cell of your Dad's had changed course at the last minute and some other whippersnapper had done the trick that you would never have existed? would have never come into existence? would never exist at any point in the future because you had your chance?
I have posed an existential puzzle.
Shaw: "There is not one shred of evidence that some disembodied entity produced the YOU that is YOU from your father's sperm and your mother's egg."
ReplyDeleteZ-man: "Au contraire as it does point to some spiritual, cosmological principle at work..."
What is the antecedent to the word "it" in that sentence? I can't answer you because I don't know to what you are referring.
Z-man: "...since the atheist would have us believe that millions of us came into existence through sheer chance, that the right one-in-a-million sperm cell found its way to the right egg and we resulted as a result."
Shaw: Find me a biologist who disagrees with that. You're arguing from a belief that has no basis in fact. None. We do come into existence through sheer chance.
Z-man: "Millions of walking Lottos, from a mathematical perspective that's absurd."
Shaw: You state it, but you don't explain why you believe that's absurd. Just saying it doesn't MAKE it so. You have to back it up with a reason for its being absurd.
Z-man: "Also the whole process of reproduction, the whole blueprint for the ensuing miraculous events, the genetics involved, WHO invented all this?"
Biology. And it isn't "invented." The whole process evolves. It's pretty much established that we came from simple cells and evolved into complex proteins and evenually, Voila! Peeps!
I suggest reading Richard Dawkins' "The Greatest Show on Earth," The Evidence for Evolution."
He answersf all of your questions in that book and in beautifully clear detail.
BTW, you never did give me a convincing argument for why you believe atheism "falls short."
ReplyDeleteShort of what? And by whose standard.
There are millions of atheists worldwide, and the numbers are increasing yearly. They are as moral and neighborly as you would determine a religious person is.
The difference is that atheists are moral and neighborly people because it is the right thing to be and not because some disembodied entity threatens them with eternal damnation unless they obey this disembodies entity's rules--which it keeps changing.
Let me work backwards here from your points. Re evolution how does evolution IF true disprove the existence of God? The Catholic Church has made some rumblings in the recent past that the two can co-exist so reading Dawkins' book would be useful to me how at least as it pertains to this discussion??
ReplyDeleteYou obviously believe in a sort of biological determinism, that only one sperm cell and only one egg cell would have led to Shaw Kenawe. What's relevant here and why that's absurd you have to get into the whole area of consciousness. What is it, where does it come from and why is your consciousness unique from somebody else's consciousness? HOW exactly do certain brain cells lead to consciousness, to an awareness of your own personality? IF that were the case we should be able to create artificial intelligence in computers, to a computer actually being aware of its own existence. NOW if it is impossible biologically speaking for a piece of physical matter to give rise to the mind, to the personality, to the (can we say it?) soul then clearly some other mechanism is at work, some non-material principle. Rene Descartes' Ghost in the Machine.
Atheism falls short for the following:
ReplyDeleteThey can't explain where consciousness, your unique consciousness comes from.
They can't explain the order in the Universe. How can the human eye be so perfect and make sight possible? WHO created the blueprint directing the zygote to divide such and such a way so as to lead to a newborn? etc. etc.
BTW nothing is implied that atheists are immoral and I never said that.
Shaw: "We do come into existence through sheer chance."
ReplyDeleteYes, our physical selves of course but this still doesn't explain consciousness. Don't you feel special Shaw or are we just a mass of cells and neural passageways and various systems? Are we no more than the physical? Is there nothing beyond the material? How do you explain the process of dreaming? Are the images unfolding on the insides of our eyelids during the night? If not then where are those images inside our brains and how can we see them (imaginatively of course) if our physical eyesight isn't even involved? Science to me can't explain dreaming.
Re biology and the blueprint for creation among other things:
"And it isn't invented. The whole process evolves."
But where does the logic, the orderly progression come from? Sit a monkey at a typewriter for a million years and he can bang out Shakespeare. I don't think so.
Actually thinking that there is some sort of lottery that made me become a person makes me feel pretty damn good! Why would it make you feel bad?
ReplyDeleteIn other words, why wonder "what if...?" as in what if this sperm and this egg didn't come together and form me, why wonder it since that didn't happen?
ReplyDeleteJust enjoy the day my friend and don't wonder what if.
Z-man,
ReplyDeleteThis discussion would be better in a face-to-face medium because there are so many parts to it, and typing my answers, and then having you respond seems inadequate. So let me try to give you my perspective on a few of your premises.
"Atheism falls short for the following:
They can't explain where consciousness, your unique consciousness comes from."
I'm not sure "where consciousness comes from" is the pertinent question. HOW consciousness arises seems to me the more precise question.
The simplest answser one can give is that "God did it." But that explains nothing. You can read books on brain function, biology, etc., that go into complicated detail on how we are conscious beings, but that takes a lot of time and effort to understand; therefore, it is my belief that people default to the god answser becasuse it is so much easier as an explanation.
I am awed by the fact that we are matter that has become aware of itself.
Think about that. No. Really. Just say that to yourself again and again. It is profound.
Z-man: "They can't explain the order in the Universe. How can the human eye be so perfect and make sight possible?"
Actually, if you take the time and effort, there are many books that explain this. I can't write it out here because it is complicated. You seek an easy answer. The easy answer is: "God did it."
Okay. No problem. If you choose to believe that and walk away, fine. But there is actually very specific, detailed explanations of how the human eye is complicated, and actually not very well designed. One has to make the effort to read and digest it all.
Z-man: "WHO created the blueprint directing the zygote to divide such and such a way so as to lead to a newborn? etc. etc."
Again, you are supposing that a biological process needs a designer. Something as complicated as a human being actually evolved from something simple as a single cell, but that process evolved over millions of years to get us to where we are now.
The premise of some religionists that we were created exactly as we are now defies everything that exists in nature.
No rational person believes that a female human was made from some guy's rib. Seriously. That's a story, an allegory to explain that which the ancients could not understand.
Z-man has already said that creationism and Intelligent Design are not the same. Plus, science can explain how something is and what is does, but it doesn't explain how it came into being, that is where faith and the belief that a higher being created it come in.
ReplyDeleteShaw science may have the brain all mapped out but it can't begin to explain how matter, certain matter becomes aware of itself. The point is not only where or how your consciousness came to be but even more importantly where does the uniqueness of your consciousness come from, your unique consciousness? How things evolve if they do evolve in an orderly, a reasonable way there is obviously a principle of reason involved, Design. Read the manual and your technical specifications of your DVD player, the wind or the elements didn't put it together. & yes as Beth said Intelligent Design and Creationism are not one and the same thing. I too don't believe woman came from a man's rib which brings up the old joke: How do we know Adam was white? Ever try to take a rib away from a black man? (there's one for old El Rushbo).
ReplyDeleteBeth I have to say I don't share your view at all. You have accepted without knowing it the fundamental premise of the atheist, that the union of only one sperm cell out of millions and only one egg cell would have led to you. This would mean you're not special at all and as Shaw said you came into existence out of mere chance. It disturbs and should make you uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever considered the uniqueness of your own consciousness? not just consciousness in general but yours as being unique? Only YOU experience the uniqueness of your own consciousness, your innermost thoughts and feelings, that unique awareness of your own being. Philosophically speaking Science can't begin to explain the uniqueness of your own consciousness and this is where atheism really begins to break down. Are you happy with the thought that there was a much greater chance that you never would have come into existence?
Beth so you're left with a God but without a Plan. I say to Shaw I don't worship matter and how matter can become aware of itself is never exactly explained I don't care how many science books you read. She said this format is somehow inadequate for such a heavy subject.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should Skype.
From ReligiousCriticism.com
ReplyDelete"Let’s imagine we’re sitting together having a relaxed, honest and open discussion about religion. On the table is a huge stack of white index cards and on each index card is one of thousands of different religions, gods, belief systems, along with arguments for believing in that particular religion or god. Maybe a card has a current religion, or maybe it has a older religion that no one believes in any more, or is largely forgotten. It doesn’t matter – the point is that they’re all here in this great big stack, except for the ones that you believe in – you religion’s not in this stack.
One at a time, I draw up a card and I read you the religion and god and arguments for why you should believe in it and you respond with the reasons you dismiss the arguments and why you don’t believe the religion or god, and I’ll write the responses down.
So we go through every argument ever made for every other religion, their gods, supposed holy books, witnesses, miracles, profits, saviors, prophecies, testimonies, answered prayers, faith claims, affects for good, archeological support; whatever the argument, we go through it. We note all your counter arguments and dismissals on the back on each card.
It won’t take long before we realize that there is a pattern. Your argument for dismissing one religion will likely be similar to a previous answer. We won’t need to write anything down any more – we can just refer back to a previous argument.
Once we get to the bottom of the stack, I take another card out of my pocket. This card has your religion and god on them, and all the arguments that you think support them. We go through that card and they are refuted referring back to arguments you made before, just as we did with all the previous cards.
The fact is that you’re an atheist in regards to thousands of other religions and gods. You already know everything there is to know about dismissing religious arguments. You’re an expert already. You rationally dismiss thousands of other religions or gods just like any atheist does. The difference is you don’t turn that critical side of your mind to your own beliefs.
This realization is all anyone needs to know to recognize their faith doesn’t stand up any more. It’s just question of how honest you can be with yourself."
Interesting take, I think.
Well if I were to here make these claims about my religion, Christianity, then I'd be getting into some territory and folks may have every right to bash me. I'm deliberately keeping it very very general talking about how atheism doesn't stand up on a rational level. In fact I think they're threatened by the very concept of God and that's why they're so adamant and closed-minded. Are agnostics threatened by the idea of God? Of course not as they're at least more open-minded about the question.
ReplyDeleteIf you'll notice I didn't discuss specific faith systems here as I've done on other blogs just raised some points about how little Science can really explain. How can matter become aware of itself in certain cases (e.g. the human brain)? My point is that it can't and that forms the basis of religion, any religion. You know the Freemasons simply talk about the Grand Architect of the Universe. For them you can believe in any God you want, that's that Masonic doctrine of religious liberty that our Founders incorporated into the Constitution as they were Masons themselves. Atheism doesn't inspire, how can it when it's not spiritual? Most people have a thirst, a real need for the spiritual and so really what does atheism offer in the end?
I might add though after reading your comment again Mopper and some of Shaw's too I'm left with this. Why is it ok to criticize religion (and it should be don't get me wrong) but not apparently to criticize atheism???
ReplyDeleteIt's okay to criticize atheism and religion but not for the same reasons.
ReplyDeleteI just think it's rather un-kosher to make the quantum leap of saying that if something in nature is "unexplainable" then therefore it's the work of God. From a scientific perspective there are millions of things that elude scientists but they keep the "case" open until they learn more.
I don't consider myself an atheist but rather agnostic - in my opinion, if there is a God then I believe he/she has absolutely no bearing on anything that occurs on this planet or anywhere else in the universe or universes.
Realize that the following analogy is a bit of a stretch but suppose you are dealt a deck of cards (13 out of the total 52)...the chances of getting that exact hand are extremely large (extending into the one-out-of-billions).
ReplyDeleteYou can't just throw your arms up in the air and claim the chance of being dealt that hand are so high that there MUST be some divine intervention...the chances of getting a particular something may be minuscule but the chances of getting a general something is not.
There comes a point in every blog's life when I can't convince you and you can't convince me but I am reminded of the old Henny Youngman joke. "I was thinking of becoming an atheist but gave up on the idea because they have no holidays."
ReplyDeleteThere is also Steven Wright's contribution: "if you're in a car traveling at the speed of light and you turn your headlights on do they go on?"