Re Pro-Lifers
Soapie: "...they demonize Pro-Choice advocates (even calling them pro-abortion in some instances)..."
Satyavati: "It's proCHOICE Beth. Can you stop with the hyperinflammatory rhetoric now? Please?"
It's not demonizing or hyperinflammatory. If we called them pro-death it would be but pro-abortion in most cases is simply accurate and objective. Let's break it down:
IF you say you're personally opposed to abortion but support abortion rights you are by proper definition pro-choice and not pro-abortion. People who work for Planned Parenthood are not personally opposed to abortion otherwise they wouldn't be working there. To say they are pro-abortion is not a pejorative simply that they have no moral objections to the act otherwise again they would be doing something else with their lives. Planned Parenthood is known for pushing abortion but let's say they didn't, just presented all the options. Then they would be pro-choice but would also at the same time be pro-abortion because, let's face it that's what they do. If you're not against abortion then you're something else. If you present neutrality on the act then that makes you morally indifferent to the act and in a roundabout way makes you pro-abortion. You can be against porn but be for Free Speech. You can also be for porn and obviously for free speech. You can be indifferent to porn and be for free speech in which case you're not against porn. If you work in a porn shop you cannot in any way be said to not be pro-porn. ONLY in the first case though can it accurately be said you're not pro-porn. If you do not in some sense oppose something then you are for it. In all his years of journalism I've never heard Bill Moyers voice a personal qualm about the act of abortion so it's fair to conclude he doesn't oppose it in even a personal way. That's not demonizing or hyperrhetoric just a fair verdict. I have not yet called Saty with her preternatural compartmentalization pro-abortion because in the past anyway she made it clear she feels killing any living creature is wrong and carries with it bad karma. That's a clarification or important nuance most pro-choicers never make but for Beth and me we just find her fascinating as well as perplexing. It's interesting and curious why the very label "pro-abortion" conjures up such feelings since there would seem to be something wrong with the act itself if one shies away from the label. I'm very pro-heart surgery and pro-appendectomy ya know? Trouble is Pro-Choice doesn't tell me much and can run the gamut from personally opposed as I said to gungho. It's the safest thing to say at a Manhattan cocktail party and you don't have to go out on a limb, it's like some safe box you check off on some questionnaire. In my labelling system though I call them pro-choice and pro-life and that works. Perhaps anti-anti-abortion?
We'll start with this. It's often said these days that nobody is really for abortion (although I can give you personal anecdotes showing otherwise but we'll save this). So in a country where there are anywhere from 1-1.5 million abortions a year nobody is really pro-abortion? If you're not for something why would you go through with it? This is a kind of existential sleepwalking imo.
ReplyDeleteHi Z,
ReplyDeleteWhen you begin to Post Daily, you begin to Lose me and I no Longer have the Time and Energy to Read Every Post. I'm going to Put this one Off until Tomorrow and may not even get to the One Below it. We'll see.
This should be the last of the Pro-Life Series for a while but this vague definition of Pro-Choice has always annoyed me. Let's say you're one of those people who find abortion good in certain cases so in effect it becomes a sort of positive social good as you see it at least in certain cases, so positive a social good in fact that you feel it needs to be enshrined in the Law
ReplyDeletehence Pro-Abortion:)
There are Definitely Pro-Abortion Groups. The Counselors at Abortion Clinics Try to be Unbiased, but they are not and they do not Offer all the Information to the Girls that they should. Planned Parenting is the same way.
ReplyDeleteMore Later.
I would say if anybody is truly pro-choice it would simply be someone who has pro-choice political views but as for people who work in the Abortion Industry there is no way to flex the Logic to maintain that they are not Pro-Abortion. They are in it because they personally feel in certain cases abortion is a positive social good at least in terms of it's a positive social good to someone out there and they are providing a vital service as they see it. WHY do they see it as a vital service? because again in certain cases they see it as benefitting society, specifically a woman facing a crisis pregnancy. There's no way around it and I could go on all day about it (luckily I'm on vacation this week) but at least on some level many many pro-choice people are ALSO pro-abortion.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I am not fascinated by Saty, I am disgusted by her because she is a nurse and as such should be thinking of people in terms of saving their lives, not allowing things that destroy their lives.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the story at the Blaze about the British woman who thinks a loving mother should kill a deeply suffering child?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/uk-pundit-to-shocked-tv-host-suffering-children-should-be-smothered/
My guess is that Saty would agree with her. Well, that is disgusting to me. It is not for human beings to decide which lives have worth and which ones don't.
What can I say that hasn’t already been said?
ReplyDeleteThankfully through education and science more and more women are learning the cold hard truth about abortion. In every case an abortion involves the mother killing her child and they can never get them back after they make that permanent decision.
Pro-abortionists will try to block them from this knowledge. Whether they are trying to block legislation like Lacey's law which identifies a fetus as a human life (science supports that and why do they try to punish the women choosing not to have an abortion?), or prevent them from seeing a sonogram (where they can view the heartbeat of the child that's inside them), or deny the reports many women make of their abortion causing them depression.
It seems to there are so many families that are very anxious to adopt a baby, so anxious the supply here is limited, so they go off to some hell hole of a county to get one.
People go overseas for adoptions, not because there is a lack of babies here, but to escape the impossible bureaucracy our govt. has put in their paths. Why not try to ease up on that?
Wouldn’t it would be nice to see more American babies available for adoption instead of reading about teens dumping their new born babies in the garbage or going for abortions?
Hopefully, the word will keep getting out, and women will be aware of the true consequences and just stop choosing to get abortions. Abortion clinics are closing down due to lack of business and that’s a good thing.
For the record, I am not fascinated by Saty, I am disgusted by her because she is a nurse and as such should be thinking of people in terms of saving their lives, not allowing things that destroy their lives.
ReplyDeletePersonally, Beth, it doesn't matter to me what you think of me personally, but I'm intrigued by you thinking I have some kind of authority to 'allow' or 'disallow' anything to anyone who's competent to make their own decisions.
In fact, this to me sounds suspiciously like what you constantly argue against; a government making decisions for people and taking away their right to make decisions for themselves.
Nurses aren't here to 'allow' or 'not allow' things. We're here to support you making your own decisions for your own grown up big girl pannies self.
Whether you rejoice over or regret your decision 5, 10, 50 years from now is not my issue. My issue is that you made your decision for yourself. No one forced you into it, no one pushed you into it, and no one made it illegal for you to make it.
Nurses promote self-determination.
What YOU believe, or would like to believe nurses do is both irrelevant and inaccurate.
If I ever need a nurse, I would want a pro-life one. And the so-called woman's decision takes the life of someone who has no decision, THAT is who I speak for. I am not asking the government to control a woman's body, I am asking the government to protect the life within that body.
ReplyDeleteIf I ever need a nurse, I would want a pro-life one.
ReplyDeleteIf she's a good nurse, you'll never know whether she is or not.
It's interesting and curious why the very label "pro-abortion" conjures up such feelings
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the label is that it implies that I would be encouraging people to have abortions rather than consider adoption or any other available option.
And that's not true.
The truth is that I am not 'pro abortion'. I am 'pro a woman's right to choose what she does'. She may do anything she likes to do. It's her CHOICE.
If I were "pro" abortion, this would imply that I would find adoption or any other alternative to be distasteful and to try to steer her away from those options and focus strictly on abortion.
That's not the case.
The case is that I'm all about this woman having ALL the options available to her and having the freedom to choose any one of them according to her own preferences and needs.
So I just don't see how you can call that "pro abortion". It's like calling me "pro pistachio" just because I like the fact that Baskin Robbins has all 31 flavors available in their shops.
(I truly AM, however, pro pistachio, although I support the right of the unenlightened to go with chocolate chip mint.)
"And the so-called woman's decision takes the life of someone who has no decision, THAT is who I speak for."
ReplyDeleteYou speak for yourself on this matter. Do not make the mistake otherwise. You've absolutely no way of knowing or distinguishing what position those you proclaim to speak for would take on the subject. You can presume. And to be certain you do (and I wouldn't fault you for it). But reality and truth reveal that there is absolutely no way that you can "know" that you speak for someone whom (by your own admission) hasn't a voice.
Well thanks for at least acknowledging that there is an unheard voice, Soapie, and yes, I don't know for sure, how could I know what the unborn would want? All I know is that they should be given respect, and killing them gives them no respect.
ReplyDeleteThis does not mean that I don't care for the feelings of the mother, but I hardly think that the death of the child is a fair trade-off.
Abortion is not about one body Saty, it is about two bodies, two lives. If I was trying to outlaw tatoos, you could say you are pro-choice for letting someone do to their body what they wish, and you would be right, I have no right to tell someone not to have a tatoo on their own body. But abortion isn't a woman deciding about just her body, she is ending a life.
ReplyDeletebtw, Saty, likening pro-abortion to ice cream flavor choice is despicable, human lives are at stake here.
ReplyDeleteYou know Saty, if you had one ounce of care for the life of the unborn, when I called you out for your inappropriate analogy, you would have replied "I didn't mean it that way, sorry" but no, you instead decided to put me down instead. Which to me means you don't care about life at all, and I do think it proper to consider you pro-abortion.
ReplyDeleteSaty re Beth: "In fact, this to me sounds suspiciously like what you constantly argue against; a government making decisions for people and taking away their right to make decisions for themselves."
ReplyDeleteThen why are you a socialist? Abortion for most liberals is one of those rare exceptions to their prevaling philosophy that the government is the answer to everything and needs to involve itself in everything. If you're only pro-choice on this one issue and not pro-choice across-the-board then you ain't truly pro-choice which is another problem I have with this label.
Saty re the label "pro-abortion": "The problem with the label is that it implies that I would be encouraging people to have abortions."
ReplyDeleteI never said you do that but there are many people who do. Certainly the abortion industry has done it (see the video "Meet the Abortion Providers" from the Pro-Life Action League). People who are against informed-consent as including info on fetal development and Post-Abortion Syndrome are pro-abortion.
"The truth is that I am not 'pro-abortion'"
Where did I apply that moniker to you? I'd sooner apply it to soapie but anyway let's go over this again. If a person somehow sees abortion as being a positive social good at least in certain cases then he or she is pro-abortion even if they don't push it personally. Ah that's a new wrinkle so let's really dig into this. A woman in a crisis pregnancy who chooses abortion obviously sees the abortion as having some benefit to her personally, a positive social good in effect for at least her. Now a person in the abortion industry who feels abortion should be provided if others want it also obviously sees abortion as being a positive social good at least in certain cases. Conclusion: a person who somehow sees abortion or the availability of abortion as a positive social good at least in certain cases is on some level pro-abortion.
"It's like calling me 'pro pistachio' just because I like the fact that Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors available in their shops."
ReplyDeleteWould eating a fetus be a form of cannibalism?
I love your analogy and had to munch on it for a while and here's what I came up with. Let's say you got the law changed and Baskin Robbins now had to have pistachio ice cream would that make you pro-pistachio? Let's say if Baskin Robbins couldn't afford it the taxpayers had to pay for the pistachios. Some folks just can't live without their pistachio ice cream, it needs to be on the menu...
IN FACT THAT ONE PISTACHIO FLAVOR IS SO IMPORTANT TO YOU that you don't mind or much care if Baskin Robbins carries the coffee flavor or the butter pecan or the chocolate chip mint SO LONG AS THEY HAVE THAT ONE PISTACHIO FLAVOR. Maybe you don't like the pistachio flavor much yourself but the idea of that flavor is so damn important the ice cream consumer can't exercise right personal autonomy w/o it...kinda makes you pro-pistachio doesn't it at least a little.
ReplyDeleteTo be pro pistachio would mean one of the following two things:
ReplyDelete1. I would insist that all other flavors be eliminated from the menu
OR
2. The other flavors can be left on the menu, but no one is allowed to buy anything but pistachio.
THAT'S pro pistachio.
Pro choice would mean I would like for you to have full advantage of choosing whichever of those 31 flavors rock your world, even that happens to be chocolate chip mint.
Oh Boy! 23 Comments already. Oh well.
ReplyDeleteJust Responding to the Post itself...,
I once had an Interview to Work as a Counselor at an Abortion Clinic. The Interview did not go well, cause as soon as I Told the Lady that I am Pro-Life, I Knew that she wasn't going to Hire me. Even though I Told her that I Understood Perfectly that the Girls had every Right to Make up their Own Minds about whether or not to have an Abortion, the Fact that my Own Personal Conviction was Pro-Life Excluded me from being Considered.
If the Focus of the Clinic had Truly been "Pro-Choice", rather than "Pro-Abortion", then what a Person's Personal Position in the Matter is in Relation to their Own Personal Life wouldn't have Mattered, but it did. As Long as the Hiring Policies are Biased in Favor of the "Pro-Abortion" idea, then the Clinic is not "Pro-Choice", because to be Genuinely "Pro-Choice", there can not be a Bias.
It just so Happens that Abortion Clinics and also Planned Parenting Purposely Exclude Information about Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome because of their Pro-Abortion Bias. Instead, Girls are Told that the Procedure is no Big Deal and that what is Killed is just a Cluster of Cells. This Information is Incorrect and Misleading.
The Pregnancy Center that I Worked at was in a lot of Ways also "Pro-Choice", because even though we were Pro-Life, we also Respected the Girl's Legal Right to Make her Own Choice, yet our Emphasis was on Informed Choice and we Told them Everything, including Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome and Discussed ALL of their Options with them.
They were Told about Child Rearing and Adoption and yet we also told them that we would continue to be here for them regardless of what they decided to do.
Then why are you a socialist?
ReplyDeleteBecause I believe socialism is the absolute best way to go.
And don't be naive and assume that this means something like I want the government to run your life. Read up on socialism; it's not like that.
Still Responding to the Post...
ReplyDelete"It's interesting and curious why the very label "pro-abortion" conjures up such feelings, since there would seem to be something wrong with the act itself if one shies away from the label."
That is a Very Interesting Point, Z, and it is Called Being Defensive. Why after all is the "Pro-Abortion" Idea more of a pejorative, and Considered more hyper-rhetoric, demonizing or as Satyavati put it "hyperinflammatory" than Pro-Heart Surgery or Pro-Appendectamy?
Z,
Starting with your First Comment, it is Interesting that you mentioned "Sleepwalking" because quite Often the Girls are in a Daze and they Feel Numb while having an Abortion. They don't really Want to Feel what they are Feeling. They just Want it to be Over with.
Malcontent,
Many Women Feel Regrets Later and it is not just Guilt either. Some Actually Feel a Sense of Loss and will go through a Morning Process (Depression), yet whenever Guilt is Mixed with Morning, this is not a Good Thing.
There is even Trauma at Times. Some of the Symptoms of Post Abortion Syndrome are not Unlike that of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Yes, that is Right. There are some that Actually have Nightmares and Flash Backs and some that Cry when ever they are around Babies. There is also Anniversary and Birthday Stress. This is very Real. I'm not Making this Up.
And yes, just as Malcontent has said, "Pro-abortionists will try to block them from this knowledge."
In California, Adoption is a lot Easier than it used to be, yet People don't always inquire about it because they have Out Dated Ideas about it.
Satyavati,
Please don't get too Distracted by Beth's Insults. I'm not Disgusted with you and never will be.
"Whether you rejoice over or regret your decision 5, 10, 50 years from now is not my issue."
This is True except when the Regret is due to Misinformation or the Exclusion of Information that should have been Shared.
I wonder if I should do one more.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the Comment by Beth (10/4/2010, 3:54 PM), it made me Think of how, even though the Pregnancy Center that I Worked for was Pro-Life, even so, the Volunteer Manual Kept Repeating that it is Important to not Put our Focus on the Baby, because if we do, the Pregnant Girl will Feel as if we do not Care about her and she is the One who is sitting right before us and Needing Love and Understanding.
That is why our Focus was on Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome and not Disgust and Murder. We Try to Save Lives if we can, but Insulting the Girls does not Accomplish this Objective.
I don't Really Think that Satyavati is Pro-Abortion, though I also haven't heard her Express an Opinion about Informed Choice in Relation to Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome.
Soap,
Beth's Assumption that the Baby wants to Live is not Inaccurate, for I have heard it said that one really neat thing about the Maternity Ward is that there are no Patients in the Hospital that Fight Harder for Life than the Babies. There is no Reason, therefore, to Assume that any of them do not Desire Life.
Z,
"People who are against informed-consent as including info on fetal development and Post-Abortion Syndrome are pro-abortion."
Amen!!
"Let's say if Baskin Robbins couldn't afford it the taxpayers had to pay for the pistachios."
She Chuckles. Good Point, Z.
Satyavati,
Now we are getting Technical about the Definition of "Pro"-Whatever and I don't Think that Z's Definition is any Less Valid than yours, for you do not have to be "Pro" Something in an Extreme and Pushy way in Order to Exhibit a Bias in that Direction.
Beth,
I Think the Reason why Satyavati chose to Insult you, rather than Apologize for her Ice Cream Analogy, is because you also have an Insulting Tone. You Make Very Good Points, Beth, yet the Insults Cause People to not Really Hear what you are Saying and Unfortunately, you have so Distracted her that she may not Listen to me either.
Satyavanti,
ReplyDeleteThere are Lots of People Waiting to Adopt Babies. There is no Lack for that. And it is Far Easier than it Used to be. If you think otherwise, then your Information is Out Dated.
The Pregnancy Center that I Keep Mentioning Offers not Only Counseling, but also Provides Baby Supplies and on Going Friendship with Unwed Mothers.
Again, that analogy has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You try so hard to make the death of unborn babies into houses getting washed away and ice cream choices, but you simply do not see that a life ends after an abortion. And the life of the mother also can get deeply affected, but you have your blinders on and don't think past the abortion.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why I'm back on the Computer again. I thought I was done, yet Oh well.
ReplyDeleteActually the House Analogy is a little Better than the other one, because there are Situations in which a Pregnant Girl can Feel like her Life is being Swept Away, yet it Only Feels that way. With a Little Encouragement, it's not the End of the World to the Extent that it seems. The Judgmental Attitudes Towards Unwed Pregnancies has Changed Over the Years and what I Found Out from Working at the Pregnancy Center is that a Lot of these Girls are Pregnant because they want to be; Way more of them than I Expected.
Some of them are Hoping that this will Help them to Feel Accepted and Needed and Others are Trying to Trap their Boyfriends into Marriage, yet either way, Many of these Pregnancies are Deliberate, not Accidental and the reason why is because Unwed Parenting is not as Looked Down On as it Used to be.
You actually make sense Lista, I do see the analogy now, but I don't think I ever suggested that we not help women contemplating abortion, all I suggested is that Saty used poor judgment in her first analogy which showed TO ME a lack of respect for the unborn, and IN MY OPINION shows that she does not care for the unborn. How her caring for the elderly shows that she cares about the unborn, I don't see the connection, I think we should respect all lived, old, young, born, unborn, everyone equally.
ReplyDeleteWow! Why Remove your Blog, Beth? I mean, Even in Your Absence, People will Continue to Read it. If I Remember Right, there is a Way to Block Comments if you Really do not Wish to be Bothered with them.
ReplyDeleteComment Moderation Works as well and then you can Ignore your Blog for as Long as you Want to and not Worry about Spam. Just Communicate this to your Blogging Friends and than Go Away and Don't Worry about it. There's no Reason, though, to Delete the Blog.
You Know Styavati,
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it, but I found the comparison of the choice to kill something inside of you to an Ice Cream Flavor a little Insensitive as well, though I do Understand that no Analogy is Perfect.
Here's one that I think Describes it a little Better...
There is a Horrible Monster after the Girl and she has three Paths to Choose from as she Runs from it. One of the Paths Appears Easy, for it is Level and even Down Hill in some Places. The other two Paths are Rugged and go Up Hill.
The Problem is that the Easy Path Involves the Killing of a Child who is Tied to a Tree where the Monster will be able to get to her unless the Girl is willing to Climb up one of the Two Rugged Paths in Order to Save the Child.
Unfortunately, the Only Way to Save the Child is through a Climb up one of the Two Rugged Trails up the Mountain and Unfortunately, even the Shorter of the Two Trails involves a Climb that will Last about 5 Months, not 9, because it Takes about 4 Months in Order to Really Start to Show one's Pregnancy.
Now, in Order to Save the Child, the Owner of the Easy Trail, that is the One who Pays for it's Up Keep, has been Considering Placing a Gate in Front of the Trail, so that it would no Longer be an Option.
Is this Fair? I don't Know, but it's Worth Thinking about.
What I'm Puzzled about is why the Girl has no Desire to Save the Child that is Roped to the Tree and will Surely Die if the Girl does not Make the Climb up the Mountain in Order to Save her. Perhaps she is Selfish, yet then again, Perhaps it is also because she is Ignorant because no one has ever accurately explained to her the True Nature of the Situation.
That's Interesting, Satyavati. You are Under no Obligation to Defend yourself as you say "Over and Over" and yet Defending yourself is what you Continue to do, when in Reality what I was sort of Trying to do was to Introduce you to a New Analogy that is Emphasizing a New Concept and you have not Addressed the New Concept, because you are Still in a Defensive Mode.
ReplyDeleteIf you were to Ask me what is going on, I could say that my Analogy is the one that has gone over Your Head. Yet since I don't really want to Insult you, what I'm going to say is that People Get Different Things Out of Analogies. That is just sort of the Nature of Analogies. Quite Often they mean what the Author Intends, Plus Something Else that the Author was not Thinking of when the Analogy was Stated.
Lista,
ReplyDeletePlenty of things go over my head.
That doesn't insult me. It's the truth.
No I can work with this.
ReplyDelete"To be pro-pistachio would me one of the following things:"
But you're not against the pistachio.
"(1) I would insist that all other flavors be eliminated from the menu"
But by saying Baskin Robbins has to offer the option of the pistachio by law you're drawing attention to The Pistachio,
"OR (2) The other flavors can be left on the menu but no one is allowed to buy anything but pistachios"
But if you don't give other information on the other flavors, if you don't provide the ice-cream consumer with full knowledge of the other products they're gonna lean heavily towards the pistachio and again you don't have to be pushy or intrusive about it but since you have such a good opinion of the pistachio flavor, in effect seeing it as a positive business good that at least on some level makes you pro-pistachio:)
Hi Satyavati,
ReplyDeleteYour Comment actually Made me Smile cause it's Humble, yet I do sort of Wish that you Understood my Analogy. Oh well. We'll Leave that for another day.
Sorry if you Feel that I Put Down your Ice Cream Flavor Analogy. I did not Misunderstand either of your Analogies in the Manner in which you Originally Intended, just as you Explained. I happen to be good at Analogies. I just Wanted you to be Aware that I also Understand what Beth said about it.
Z,
Actually, it is not the Absence of Information about the other Flavors that is Troubling. It is the Absence of the Information about the Pistachios. You see, there are some People who have a Reaction to the Pistachios called PAS, Pistachio Aggravation Syndrome, which is another Form of Post Abortion Syndrome.
Satyavati,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you'll Eventually Realize that there are other Issues besides the Banning of Pistachios (Abortion). There is also the Matter of Informed Consent and if Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome are not Part of the Informed Consent Requirement, then the Information given is not Adequate and there are lots of People who feel this way.
It could just as easily be any of the 31 flavors thought... I'm more interested that you should be able to choose whichever of those flavors you like.
ReplyDeleteIt really hasn't got anything to do with the pistachios per se. I just want you to be able to have all 31 to choose from.
What if Baskin Robins was not Required to Disclose whether or not there are Nuts in their Ice Cream? Nuts are Deadly to People who are Allergic to them. Could we Stop Talking about the Banning of Pistachios for a Minute and Address the other Issue? Please!!
ReplyDeleteKeeping the baby, putting it up for adoption or aborting it. So where are the 28 other options?
ReplyDeleteThe point is that ALL the options are available to you, not just SOME of them.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't care which one you choose. I just want you to be able to CHOOSE.
You know Satyavati,
ReplyDeleteYou made a Comment once about being Versatile, yet when it comes to the Abortion Issue, you are not Versatile at all. The Allowing or Banning of Abortion is the Only Side of the Issue that you are Willing to Address and Every Time that either I or Z Bring up an Informed Consent Issue, you Ignore it.
I addressed it at length in another post and said my piece on it.
ReplyDeleteThat horse, as it were, has gone on to greater glory and I for one am done beating it.
I do not Recall you saying anything other than, you do not have an Opinion on it. All the Extensive Legal Jargon was not Informative, because it said nothing about the Actual Question at Hand, which is Fetal Development and Post Abortion Syndrome. All I see is a Person who is Side Stepping the Issue.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course you have every right to perceive it in the way that suits you best.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't change anything, but it's all right with me.
I Guess I could also say that it is alright with me if your Perception Reflects Denial rather than Reality, yet that's not how I Feel about it. The difference is that I Care about your False Perception, even if you do not. What you have just Expressed is not Respect, but Apathy.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that I respect your right to your opinion without judging whether your perceptions are 'false' or not. They're your perceptions. For you they're reality. That's all good. I'm not here to change how you think. You may, if you like, continue to attempt to change how I think, but you should be prepared for frustration.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that you spend so much time trying to change me? Can't you just respect my opinions like I respect yours?
This is what I mean when I say that the pro-life crowd is not satisfied unless everyone gets converted to their viewpoint. It's mighty fascist. Dissenting opinions just don't get tolerated.
You said elsewhere that pro-choicers don't really care what other people believe but don't you think the choicers feel somebody should not be pro-life? I mean if this were the case we normally wouldn't be debating the issue no?
ReplyDeleteSatyavati,
ReplyDeleteIt is not Correct to Assume that just because a Person is Expressing their Opinion, that this is Evidence of Lack of Respect. All that I have ever done, Satyavati, is Expressed my Opinion. I have Never Disrespected you.
If I Told you that you are an Idiot, that would be Disrespectful. If I Told you that you Disgust me, that would be Disrespectful, but I have not ever done such things. All I have done is Expressed my Opinion, just as is the customary thing to do on Blogs.
I do Respect your Opinion, but quite frankly, I wish you were better at Defending it. You Defend Socialism rather well, but there are lots of Pro-Choice Arguments that are much better than the ones you have Stated.
Now if I had no Respect for the Pro-Choice Position, then I would not have been able to State what I said in my Previous Sentence.
And as far as My Reality and Your Reality, this mainly refers to Internal Realities and yours is different than mine, yet there is also such a thing as Scientific Reality and the facts about Fetal Development are Scientifically Clear. That is the Baby's Reality, which is entirely Separate from my Reality or yours.
Also, why do you Think that Desiring to Persuade someone is a Negative? I don't see it that way and I do not see it as Disrespectful either. Simply Expressing Ones Opinion is not Disrespectful, nor is it Intolerant.
"the pro-life crowd is not satisfied unless everyone gets converted to their viewpoint."
That Statement is a form of Stereo Typing and when applied to the Entire Group and not just the Pushy ones, it is Simply not True.
Z,
ReplyDeleteIt's not at all Unusual for those who hold Positions that agree with the Current Law to be Less Concerned about Converting and Changing things, than those who want the Law to be Changed. If the Law was Changed, however, the Pro-Choicers would become much more Pushy. Any Pro-Choicer who thinks other wise is Lying to herself.
Simply Expressing Ones Opinion is not Disrespectful, nor is it Intolerant.
ReplyDeleteThis is true.
It's when you get into categorical statements that MY perceptions are false and that I'M in denial that we move into both of those things.
You, of course, are free to perceive them as you will.
I, of course, am free to disregard what anyone else thinks.
don't you think the choicers feel somebody should not be pro-life?
ReplyDeleteThis is very nebulous and let me see if I can work my way through it.
If you mean 'someone should not be pro-life'.. meaning that people should not be against people having choices, then yes, I think for many folks that's true.
I don't believe people who are pro-choice are all out there rooting for pregnant women to get abortions.
Pro-choice people just want the choices available to them. How many times do I have to say this? If you're pregnant, I don't care what option you decide to take. Have your baby. Go to Babies R Us. Knock yourself out.
I just want ALL THE OPTIONS to be available, legally and safely, to you.
So if 'pro-life' means excluding abortion from the picture, then yes, pro-choice people would not like you to be pushing to exclude abortion from the picture.
It's about having ALL THE OPTIONS available to you.
That Statement is a form of Stereo Typing and when applied to the Entire Group and not just the Pushy ones, it is Simply not True.
ReplyDeleteJust like the radical faction of various religions, it's the pushy ones that get the press.
That's how groups get labeled. You don't see nonpushy people waving picket signs and screaming at pregnant girls... or shooting doctors in churches for that matter.
Therefore, since all the ones who make the noise are pushy, and if there are any nonpushy ones, you don't hear from them... the odds are that most people have never seen a nonpushy prolifer.
I stand by what I said regardless. This argument will continue until the day I capitulate, agree that you've been right all along and beg for forgiveness.
It'll never happen, but that's what it would take to end this thing. Nothing less.
From what I can Tell, you have Taken my Idea about Perception and Denial Out of Context.
ReplyDeleteThe First Mention of the word "Perceive" was made by YOU. 10/07/2010, 2:41 PM...
"And of course you have every right to perceive it in the way that suits you best.
"Doesn't change anything, but it's all right with me."
Those are Your Words, Satyavati. This was the Very First Mention of the Word "Perceive" or any Derivative of the Term and it was you who were Accusing me of a False Perception.
In my Very Next Comment, I said "I Guess I could also say that it is alright with me if your Perception Reflects Denial rather than Reality, yet that's not how I Feel about it. The difference is that I Care about your False Perception, even if you do not. What you have just Expressed is not Respect, but Apathy. "
This was in Response, though, to your Previous Comment in which you Accused me of a False Perception and I was Actually doing nothing more than Mirroring these Words Back to you and suggesting that you were the one with the False Perception. I was not, however, the One who First Mentioned the Idea.
So if Accusing of False Perceptions is Disrespectful, then you are also Guilty.
"Just like the radical faction of various religions, it's the pushy ones that get the press. That's how groups get labeled."
That's Right and it's Called Stereo Typing. I have never in my Entire Life Screamed at a Pregnant Girl, nor have I ever Shot a Doctor and I am Talking to you Right Now, so I wouldn't say that you have never heard from someone who does not do these things.
"This argument will continue until the day I capitulate."
I'm Pretty sure that you have Typed Out just as many Words, if not more than I have, so you are Participating, but go ahead and Blame Everyone else for Arguing. If that is the way you see it, then Fine.
The Difference is that I do not see Expressing One's Opinion as a Negative and therefore do not Judge you when you do it.
Well Saty has at least admitted one thing, that most choicers would rather other people not be pro-life so they kind of do care what other people feel and think. Kind of negates her previous premise. Saying the unborn child is part of the woman's body is a False Perception. You have every right to whatever political views float your boat but you cannot begin with false premises and perceptions. A house built on a weak foundation cannot stand.
ReplyDeleteSaty: "I believe socialism is the absolute best way to go. And don't be naive and assume that this means something like I want the government to run your life."
ReplyDeleteThen you are not a socialist. Congrats!!!
I'm having a deja vu moment..
ReplyDelete...there are multiple theories of socialism...all with different emphases and different methodologies for achieving the goal.
I do feel like I've said that here before.
Promise. I'm a Socialist.
"Saying the unborn child is part of the woman's body is a False Perception." For some...
ReplyDeletebut not the Jewish religion
I guess if one likes to argue these things, it is safe to say you can find
the 'is not part' in all pro-life arguments and the
'is part' in all pro-choice arguments. I am beginning to understand that Patrick fellow....
BB,
ReplyDeleteYour Link did not Work when I Clicked on it.
I Think that you and I Covered this Issue Rather well though Under one of my Posts, Abotion/Pro-Choice/Do what I Want with 'MY OWN BODY'
The Problem is in the Phrase "a Part of". This can be Debated since all it Implies is some form of Connectiveness, yet the Fact that the Baby is a Separate Entity with it's Own Unique Identity can not be Debated. This is Simply a Fact and thus, brings the Phrase "MY OWN BODY" into Question.
I agree with Patrick and I don't. I know where he's coming from as when I started to read the usual pro-choice responses here emotionally I just wanted to lock the damn thread. You hear the same stuff over and over and over again it's like having only three DVDs in your collection on a slow tv night. Where I don't agree with him is I'm always trying to come up with some new angles on an old topic and that's where I think we need to take this debate in the future. It seems like the most stressful topic to even discuss even causing some to delete their own blogs!
ReplyDeleteI've Missed something in Relation to Patrick. I'm guessing that he just said something about not wanting to get Involved in the Abortion Debate. Lots of People have Made that Decision, yet I Agree with Z-man.
ReplyDeleteMy thing is this can apply to alot of political topics, illegal immigrants and the tax code for starters. Do we stop talking about them? Gallows humor or not I just can't get into abortion jokes just like I can't get into Holocaust jokes.
ReplyDelete