Thursday, March 14, 2013
Pope Francis I
Argentinian Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the first pope from the Americas. One news station treated him as a political candidate and flashed on the screen "opposes abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriage." Well every pope in modern times has opposed those things, it's part of official church teaching if you haven't heard but then again the msm is so used to covering politics maybe it's hard to switch gears. This was a great day for the Spanish news stations like Univision. When I first heard the news that we have a Pope Francis I went on my mobile web and found out he has only one lung because of a lung infection he had as a teen, he has prefered humble living quarters and public transportation and has a special concern for the poor. I have a good feeling about him. At 76 he defied conventional conclave wisdom that held the 115 cardinals were gonna go with somebody younger and so as one commentator put it maybe they prefer shorter-term papacies now, God knows that would be a good idea for politics. It's said he supports many social programs for the poor so we'll see how the National Review crowd reacts as they've been critical of popes in the past who have seemed to veer to the Left in their eyes. Oh yes he chose Francis which is my middle name, Francis of Assisi one of my favorite saints:)
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Back in his early days, he picked up an MS in Chemistry. Sort of unique for a Pope..augers well.
ReplyDeletePlus he's a Jesuit, intellectual. My Mom says he looks a little like Pius back in the day.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but weren't the Jesuits behind the Inquisition?
ReplyDeleteAh, but Andrew Cuomo said that he and his family were discouraged by the choice Jorge Mario Bergoglio as the church's new Pope
ReplyDeleteIf the Cuomo family were really Roman Catholics - in more than just name - and only when it's convenient - they might have something important to say. I'm disappointed as I always am about the whole Cuomo clan. They are truly NOT typical Roman Catholics. In fact I don't know what the hell they are!
What was it 12 years of Mario was enough now we get the son. Saty I remember one of the earliest books of the late Catholic writer Malachi Martin was titled The Jesuits and it's been awhile since I read it but it was a rather negative critique shall we say. Maybe the new pope will say something nutty about drones eh BB?
ReplyDeleteThey seem to pick real old guys.
ReplyDeleteAnother 40 years, Z-Man, you should be eligible. Naturally, I
looked it up, and the average Papal term is 7.3 years: not sure
what the pros and cons are.
Of course alot of Hispanics have been lost to other branches particularly Pentecostalism. Worked with a Latin lady many years ago and I assumed she was Catholic but learned she moved more towards Pentecostalism. Well if the Church gets it, go for the Spanish vote if you will why doesn't the Grand Ole Party?
ReplyDeleteWell now there seems to be a growing movement against him, first the Cuomos and they're carping and now some are saying he didn't stand up to military rulers in Argentina in the '70 and '80s. Those who want to change the church to make her more progressive, I mean this in all seriousness but I never got why they didn't form their own church/religious movement years ago. All the years wasted working to change it from the inside, what is it anyway an emotional attachment to a pope figure? It's like if I didn't like certain parts of Buddhism or Hinduism and became one anyway and always complained it should change. If you don't like Buddhism or Hinduism don't become an adherent. Ditto the Cuomos, don't like the Pope and what he stands for you're free to go. Look over the religious menu, it really is quite broad these days and choose what you like.
ReplyDeleteNot easy standing up to dictatorial
ReplyDeleteSouth American governments .
That's the point BB, it's easy to be a critic.
ReplyDeleteSince when is Believing in Social Programs from a Religious Perspective a Liberal Idea? It is only Liberal when the Programs are Government Programs. When the Church does it, this is more of a Conservative Idea, or have I misunderstood you?
ReplyDeleteThe Progressives would like to make all Groups, Religious or otherwise Progressive. Freedom of Choice in relation to Religion is not their Goal, nor is Finding a Group that they Personally Like for themselves. Wiping out Conservatism is more what they are about, so that they can Forward their Political Agenda and Impose it on everyone else.
Perhaps Lista refers to "It's said he supports many social programs for the poor" and "veering to the left". IMO, Francis I has a long history of concern for the poor and disadvanged: and like the poor, his concern is not whether
ReplyDeletethey receive help through his church or from the government, but
that they get help from any willing source. There are of course, many progessive religious groups and to suggest that their
goal is to 'wipe out conservatism
and impose their political agenda
on everyone else' is a bit egregious.
Welcome back Lista.
ReplyDeleteThanks Z.
ReplyDeleteYou are Right, BB, I was referring to the supporting of many Social Programs for the Poor and the Veering to the Left. I guess what Z meant by that isn't Clear.
In relation to the "Wiping Out of Conservatism". Anyone who infiltrates a Group that believes differently then themselves and yet Continues to Complain and Try to Change them, rather then seeking out others who have similar Believes as themselves is acting as if they have a mission to change the world to their own View Point, rather than to just find Fellowship with those who share their Beliefs.
I guess that I said this in Response to Z's Comment...
" Those who want to change the church to make her more progressive, I mean this in all seriousness, but I never got why they didn't form their own church/religious movement years ago. All the years wasted working to change it from the inside, what is it anyway, an emotional attachment to a pope figure? It's like if I didn't like certain parts of Buddhism or Hinduism and became one anyway and always complained it should change. If you don't like Buddhism or Hinduism, don't become an adherent. Ditto the Cuomos, don't like the Pope and what he stands for, you're free to go. Look over the religious menu, it really is quite broad these days and choose what you like." Z-Man, 3/16/2013, 10:39 AM
I tend to agree, Lista. But it is the nature of things to undergo change (except the Holy Land sandals...now we have flipflops).
ReplyDeleteReligion and Christianity are no
exception, hence Z-Man's 'broad
religious menu'...sort of a development, evolution, change from
the first Christians, a few Jews
following the Apostles.
In the following millenia came the 'broad religious menu', such
as the Pentacostal movement.
That's the thing BB, let the Church change naturally. People like the Cuomos want to force things, to change Her over to their POV. Let religious/theological evolution happen and if you don't like it in the meantime like I said join another faith system, there are plenty.
ReplyDeleteTrue. Technology races so fast, it makes mistakes and confuses folks.
ReplyDeleteNow, the Church..slow and easy does it. Example: the last Pope
from outside Europe was-
Pope Gregory III: Syria (731 – 741)
The Lord is the Same Yesterday, Today and Forever. It is us who change, not the Lord and then there comes the Need for a Revival, which is not Actually another change, but instead a Returning again to what is True and it just so Happens the "Pentecostal" Movement was an attempt to do exactly that.
ReplyDeleteI still Agree with Z-Man that Change is not something that should be Forced on any Person or Group.
Catholics are funny like this. I think that the Church has spent so many millenia institutionalizing the concept of being The One And Only that Catholics will not leave regardless of how unhappy they are, which, therefore, provides only one other option: change the existing paradigm.
ReplyDeleteMy mother will sit and catalogue for you every error, inconsistency, scandal and abuse of the Church, and tell you that virtually every priest, bishop, archbishop and cardinal is corrupt, and yet if you asked her why she was continuing to go to Mass every Sunday and participating as a lay member in the Church she would look at you as if you were insane. Not going is not an option.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm pointing out is that if you believe there's only one option, and for Catholics there IS only one option, by the Church's own admission and teachings (Vat II notwithstanding), then you cannot leave, and all you have left is changing what you've got.
This really is an excellent insight and goes a long way to explain the psyche of the Cuomos. Geez if it bothers you that much then there's the big oaken Church doors so leave,
ReplyDeletebut they can't:)
It also explains why every schismatic Catholic group that exists claims that because of (insert event or circumstance here)the Church is no longer the 'true' church and that they the schismatics now represent the True one holy apostolic Church. The only way to leave is to claim it is invalid and then take that role upon your own organization. Its similar to the mindset of those who claim the US is somehow invalid because of (whatever reason) and so they feel they have full authority to defy its laws and set up their Own Private Idaho. Its interesting from a psych standpoint.
ReplyDeleteSatyuavati,
ReplyDeleteYou are Talking as if you think that there is no such thing as something that is "Invalid", nor of a Complaint that is Truly Valid.
We're talking about the Catholic Church here, Lista, which is by its own admission and teaching The One And Only Means Of Salvation Without Which One Does Not Get To Heaven.
ReplyDeleteThere may be many complaints that are valid against the Church, but one does not leave it.
And I am not quite sure that anyone who isn't Catholic can understand what I'm talking about on a visceral level.
ReplyDeleteYou do not leave the Church. Period.
You don't even go INTO a non-Catholic church, not even to visit, not even for someone's wedding. You don't do it. You can throw rice outside the church, you can go to the reception but you DO NOT EVER go into another church. You don't listen to non-Catholic preaching or teaching. You don't read devotional books that don't have the Imprimatur on them. You don't watch the 'other' religious channel-you watch EWTN, which is the Catholic channel. You do not read non-Catholic translations of the Bible. EVER. If you are audacious enough to marry someone who isn't Catholic (and you shouldn't) you have to promise to raise the children Catholic and the non-Catholic spouse essentially becomes Catholic by default. It doesn't go the other way around.
I was raised like this. I went through eleven years of Catholic school, so it's burned into my psyche. I left the Church sort of in stages over a period of 12 years and it was still traumatic to a fever pitch when I started to identify myself as a Hare Krishna in 2001 (despite having announced I was leaving the Church in 86 and officially marrying outside of it in 92). Not only traumatic to me but to my family who are faced with knowing that I'm SO going to hell. I don't know if there's any way for someone who wasn't raised in the Church to actually understand it, how deep it goes. It's major.
And one more thing. Things may be a bit looser now in the Holy See, but I was born in 68, so Vat II was all kinds of newfangled and brand-spanking-shiny, and considering that not everyone was down with all those changes, I'd be willing to bet that most of the teaching I was given was of the pre-II mindset. In fact I'd be willing to bet that all the way through highschool most of it was of the pre-II mindset. Certainly I am old enough to remember Latin Mass and to have had my hand popped for bringing a baloney sandwich to school on a Friday, and to have learned every major prayer (including the Memorare) in English and Latin at minimum.
ReplyDeleteI Understood all that you said in your 6:30 PM Comment when you said it the First Time. My Response was to the last two Sentences of your 12:36 PM Comment, which was about the US.
ReplyDeleteI know what you are saying and yet there are those who have Left the Catholic Church and I do know Catholics that are not at all Reluctant to attend Protestant Churches. Not all Catholics are quite so Rigid as you have Described. It sounds to me like you have had a rather Strict Catholic Upbringing.
You have Chosen a Religion, though, that the Protestants do not agree with either. So many of the Non-Christians that have Left Christianity have come from a similar Back Ground as you have Described. It's too bad in a way too because it sort of puts a bad taste in your mouth in relation to Christianity, even though not all of Christianity is this way.
Lista, 99/100 Protestants have no idea what I believe. I have yet to meet one who does. However, not knowing about something has never stopped anyone from disagreeing with it....as we see here every day.
ReplyDeleteFolks are always change churches .
ReplyDeleteBB,
ReplyDeleteThere are groups within every Religion and even every Denomination that get off Track and that is why People Leave. The Unfortunate Truth of it, though, is that for the Most Part, People just do not seem to Grasp how to not Throw the Baby Out with the Bath Water. Instead we just get a bad taste in our mouths and develop an Aversion to everything that even remotely reminds us of whatever bad Experience we may have had.
The Truth is out there, yet the Emotions from Bad Experiences can sometimes Prevent us from fully finding it. To be Truly Intellectually Honest with ourselves, all of this needs to be set aside.
I have to say BB on a gut level Pentecostalism would seem to be more exciting. You go to Catholic Mass and everyone just sits there before the Mass turning their heads when somebody comes in and the old usher always wears this maroon suitjacket that makes him look like a game show host.
ReplyDeleteThe first time I went into a non-Catholic church it was decidedly disconcerting. I felt like I was in some kind of religious anarchist camp.
ReplyDeleteOf course, now I hang out in places that make that stuff positively tame....
And let's be clear: I do not have a 'bad taste in my mouth' about Christianity.
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of people who call themselves Christian that make me want to spit, though.
Pentecostalism IS Exciting, Z. You should Try it. What I was saying to BB is that there are Sheep Dressed as Wolfs in every Flock and sometimes the Wolf is actually the Pastor that is Teaching incorrect Teaching. Because of this, people get hurt and Unfortunately, Pentecostalism has an Emotional side to it that is really easy to Exploit. This does not Discredit them, however.
ReplyDeleteI rather like Pentecostals because they are so Free and so Bold and do not care what other people think. This Boldness starts in their Worship, yet it eventually translates into the rest of their lives, living Boldly for God.
Another thing that Happens in Churches is that sometimes they get this Exclusiveness Idea and this is when they discourage their Members from Visiting other Churches and they Get Really Possessive with their Members. This can Happen in any Denomination, whether it be Catholic, Pentecostal or whatever.
This Attitude, though, can sometimes have the Opposite Effect on some people and they will leave the Church, rather then stay, because they feel Stifled and Suffocated by the Exclusiveness. Not all churches are this way. In fact, not even all Catholic Churches are this way.
The Post that I just did relates to this in a way, for though it started with the Subject of Black and White Thinking, it ended with the Subject of Church Unity, even between Denominations.
I think you mean 'wolves dressed as sheep'?
ReplyDeleteChuckle. Oohps! You're right.
ReplyDeleteSat says the first time she went to a non-Catholic church it was disconcerting. I'd have to agree. So one day my Irish Catholic friend and I visited a non-Catholic church here in Westchester, an Episcopalian church if I remember. We were originally attracted to the Gothic architecture but their services were gonna start soon and the roadside sign gladly boasted ALL ARE WELCOME. Yeah right because no sooner did we start walking around and talking to the pastor he rudely goes to my friend "I think you should leave now." Now that's fine and all, I got no problem but your sign outside says...when I told my brother about this he goes they're probably hiding something like having pajama parties for the kiddies:)
ReplyDeleteEpiscopalians accept a wide range of belief. When I was in the deep
ReplyDeletesouth in '63 officer training, a
black lt. and myself could not find a segrated church. The old
Episcopal place let us in for services. Even the old southern belles treated us with kindness. That young man was the son of a physician, had been treated like dirt his whole life
and could not stop talking about
that church.
That's called living Christian as opposed to talking it.
ReplyDeleteSo here is One Good Report and One Bad Report about a Particular Denomination, which basically Proves what I've been trying to say all along. There are Irresponsible, Wolves in Sheep's Clothing everywhere, regardless of the Denomination. To be Fair, it is best to have more than One Experience to base any Judgment on.
ReplyDelete& we all know that simple anecdotes are not accepted as worthwhile in any valid scientific study.
ReplyDeleteTechno-theologically speaking, since Francis I is named after
ReplyDeletethe original Francis of Asssi,
shouldn't he be Francis II?
Along those lines, there were
five Popes named Sixtux. Did
Sixtus VI sound too much like
a Hyundai model?
I wonder if Francis has a Twitter acc't yet.
ReplyDeleteDoubt it- he isn't even that keen
ReplyDeleteon the Popemobile. Sort of disappeared in the news cycle, but
I'm sure he will present some new
stuff with a different take.
Since he's modeling himself on St. Francis is he gonna give away all the fine artwork at the Vatican?
ReplyDelete