Wednesday, October 29, 2014
In other Pope Francis news
Ebola and ISIS have kind of consumed the news of late but there's also the gay synod, I mean the synod that addresses gays and the Church. The draft of the draft is widely seen as being pro-gay, the only thing missing are the sex ads and Pope Francis always seems to be flirting with changing church teachings but then denies having led you on. He's a bit of a theological coquette but he still gives you that tingle. So the pre-draft/working paper talks about the gifts gays bring to the Church and society. Nobody's denying this (interior decorating, the arts, Chaz Dean's WEN Shampoo) but the more traditional wing of the Church wants to crack down harder on the sodomites and those couples in general who are living in sin. Now Francis always noted for saying Trendy Things has also said you can believe in evolution and God at the same time, there's no contradiction. I've no problem but do the evolutionists think that? Does Stephen Hawking agree with Francis? doubt it. OK so the church cafeteria is open and I'm gonna go grab me a bottle of abbey ale:)
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"...the more traditional wing of the Church wants to crack down harder on the sodomites and those couples in general who are living in sin."
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic church is the true church having descended from Christ. Should it not be unwavering? Should it not be grounded in the teachings of Christ? Heaven knows there are a plethora of other Christian denominations and alternatives which ask and require far less of the laity.
I have an acquaintance who attends one of those new age sort of churches (you know the ones with the lasers and lights and rock music, etc.). A couple of Sundays ago he posted some pictures from the "Thriller" service complete with dancing zombies and a sermon on fear. While I begrudge no-one for their worship, it's absolutely saddening to see virtually no reference; no glory in so doing.
*reverence.
DeleteCW... for me the issue with the traditionalists is this... they refuse to acknowledge that the church we have today is nothing like the church of Jesus day.
ReplyDeleteThat fact alone should show that theology and the church have changed incredibly over her more than 2000 year history. Why are any changes now frequently met with derision and a note that with those changes, we will be any less biblical?
Was that true before?
For instance... in the early days of the faith, it was strictly forbidden for followers of Jesus to join the military, as they believed Jesus call to love outweighed service to the Roman government in the army.
If someone was in the military and he converted, he could stay and finish his term as that was the moral thing to do.
Yet clearly, that is not where we are at today.
Whether we agree with the new understanding or not, one cannot argue that the church, and her theology changed.
To answer your question, I'd have to ask another question... was the church grounded in Christ when they supported pacifism, or now, when they accept military service?
I find so-called private revelations interesting even if the Church says we're not bound by them. Reading the last part of the La Salette prophecy where it says "there will be bloody wars and famines, plagues and infectious diseases" I couldn't help thinking of Ebola. Then there's the never-ending case of Fr. Nicholas Gruner who's a Fatimite/traditionalist priest not fond of Vatican 2. He's always in conflict with the Vatican as he claims he and his movement represent the true Church and they don't.
ReplyDelete"his movement..."
DeleteThe traditionalist movement, and I wouldn't even call it a movement or a traditionalist one really, was born out of Vatican II by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who was in attendance at the Second Vatican counsel and who later found the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X) simply recognized what the leadership within the Catholic church was trying to do. He committed himself to the truth; the word of God and he acted in good faith on that account. He even had said at the time that if what he did (consecrate 4 bishops against a pontifical mandate) was not of God, then what he'd established would not take root and flourish.
The church I attend is an SSPX church. SSPX just celebrated 35 years and offering of Extraordinary form or the Tridentine or Latin mass has continued to flourish because it is truth. It makes sense and is every bit in accordance with Catholic teaching.
There's a reason why the "black mass" which was recently held in Oklahoma was fixated on the Latin mass. I think it's because its followers and many other denominations aren't threatened by the Novus Ordo because they know it to be much more akin to the humanism they all preach and practice.
Ever notice religion is like government? Seems there are left/right, conservative/liberal, progressive/traditional folks in almost every sphere today.
ReplyDeleteHow come?
It stands to reason given that its hierarchy is similarly established.
Delete"...they refuse to acknowledge that the church we have today is nothing like the church of Jesus day."
ReplyDeleteIndeed and that is precisely because men made it so.
The world today is undoubtedly much different than the it was 2000 years ago. I'm not disputing that. The Catholic church ought not. It is based on the teachings of Christ; a truth which should as unmoving as the rock upon which it was founded.
Re: Vatican II, I'd tend to agree with Gruner. The post Vatican II era is vastly different; why the mass alone is clearly a testament to that. It doesn't even comport with Catholicism. It is much more akin to Protestantism.
Speaking of traditionalists, I recently watched a documentary on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. I found it very inspirational.
CW... I would probably say the church, catholic, protestant, or whatever flavor you choose to cite, is based on their particular interpretation of the teachings of Christ at that moment.
ReplyDeleteGranted the catholic side does tend to move slower on change than the evangelicals, but change they do...
A question I have is this...
We assume that the older, or longer held the belief, the more Christlike it is... is there any room for new scholarship to shape our understanding today, or is the original always the best, or most accurate?
The doctrine shouldn't change with the winds. The doctrine and the teachings should be and remain static. We as parishioners needn't always be in agreement. There have been a number of sermons where I have shaken my head in disaggreement. I also disagree in oart with yoyr assessment about the lobger held belief the more Christ like it is. The old testament is certainly old and yet not specifically "Christlike" in many respects. The understanfing ir interpretations can surely be shaped and I can't speak for anotger as to whether the original is best. However we should maintain a fortitude to keep the doctrines as accurate and true possible.
DeleteI kind of agree with this. It's like Chris and I are probably for at least some form of premarital sex but it'd be kind of weird if your pastor came out for it.
DeleteAnd why would he? Because he needs to "get with times man..."?
DeleteThe reality is, and I say this a heterosexual male guilty of premarital sex and "living in sin", it isn't the truth. Not just from a doctrinal standpoint from even from a logical one. It isn't in accordance with the perfection; the sanctity of God and/or God's plan; the trinity; Mary, Joseph, and child.
This sort of fast and loose, anything goes sort of living doesn't really comport with the reverence and sanctity or glory of God.
And it is for this very reason that individuals, and religions alike, water it down to make it more palatable because otherwise "it's just so hard....it asks too much...all the sitting and kneeling and standing....having to wear a tie or a suit or sit in church for and hour and a half.....".
Simply because we'll never achieve the divinity of that caliber is no reason to stop trying.
To add to this, it speaks directly to Dave's inquiry. The Catholic church "got with the times man..." and redid 1900+ years of not only tradition but Christ's word by changing the mass.
DeleteAmong many things that set Catholicism apart from other religions is transubstantiation; the belief in the conversion of the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. Consider that for a moment.
Now recognize that in countless parishes around the world the faithful are now receiving the blessed sacrament (the body and blood of Christ) in their hand (only to have fragments fall to the floor and be trample upon).
In keeping with the sanctity and tradition, each recipient receives the sacrament directly from the priest on their tongue and paten is placed underneath the chin. Therefore, any fragments fall onto the paten and the those fragments are then brushed into the chalice and consumed by the priest.
I can't speak for anyone else as to what is "better" or "more accurate" but I can tell you what makes sense to me.
BB if you feel as Dave does that Jesus was a political liberal then it makes sense that you should also feel that the Church should have a Left political orientation.
ReplyDeleteNot sure about Dave, he is a missionary. IMO, Jesus stuck up for the under dog. Beatitudes, etc. IMO, liberals are for the underdog as well. Blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek. the peacemakers. To put the theology on a street level, we don't see blessed are the very rich, the loudmouths, the warmongers: no, we get how the camel can pass through the eye of a needle easier than the Trump, etc. Just sayin'. :)
DeleteI love to argue as Saty knows but this is a hard one even for me. I pass, I mean I can make up some drivel but...so how did Ayn Rand feel about spreading her libertarian germs around?
DeleteShe wasn't a libertarian she was an objectivist.
DeleteI get your point but you have to explain. Most libertarians have kind of adopted her.
DeleteI was doing a crossword puzzle a couple of Sundays ago. Does anyone know the name of the valley where David killed Goliath? (4 letters)
ReplyDeleteUhhh....Napa Valley?
DeleteI wrote down Geth but even after reading the biblical passage it was unclear. Goliath came from the valley of Geth but is that also where David slingshotted him? Got busy and never checked the answer. It's in Yonkers recycling somewhere.
DeleteThe valley was Elah, where the Hebrews confronted the Philistines:
Delete1 Samuel 17:2,19 etc. You gotta get an OT app, Z-Man. That nurse up in Maine, she's got an attitude, ya think?
Damn... I think that nurse wants to be some type of political cause celebre.
DeleteZ-man... I think Jesus upended the traditional views of the religious and government of his day. If that makes him liberal, so bit it.
ReplyDeleteI happen to think that he stood outside of the government, choosing to basically say, the gov is the gov and let them do what they want. Your call if you are following me is to be faithful to God, despite what the gov says.
It is interesting that in his trial, he basically chose not to engage in, or even offer a defense, simply abandoning himself to Pilate and the others.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of government involvement for Jesus followers...
Agreed. Jesus was and is a true non-agressionist and he should be commended on that note if nothing else.
DeleteGandhi was as well. Another commendable individual.
And yes, I think that nurse is a little nuts... if she does come down with ebola, maybe they'll be a little slow up there getting her treatment...
ReplyDeleteSad to read today that the Archdiocese of NY will announce soon which parishes will merge and which will close as part of their restructuring plan. The Church is run like a business or corporation today and is no longer spiritual.
ReplyDeleteThey closed three local churches and built a large mega Catholic church in
Deleteour town. Some of the old congregation people are very upset. The Bishop explained that maintenance on the one is less expensive, and priests are scarce. The hospital bought old St. Staninslaus. St. James is for sale and not sure what Holy Family's fate will be. The big new place is impressive:
they named it All Saints, sort of in hone of the old Stan's & James, I guess.
A large Catholic megachurch? probably has public wifi.
DeleteAbbey Ale eh?
ReplyDeleteI can't say enough about all of the brew houses opening up in and around NE Minneapolis. It is a beer drinker's paradise. I've had some really good brews as of late. I think my new go to is Epic Brewing's Escape to Colorado IPA.
The local & area microbrew phenomenon has really taken off. Out this way,
Deletea couple are Ninkasi , named for the ancient Sumerian goddess of beer brewing, and Big Sky Brewing . I usually
keep some of Big Sky's Moose Drool brown ale around in winter. The upside is, they are all fun to try (remember Old Chicago and their 100
beer checklist?) and the only types I don't like are the porter..some sort
of allergy there. The downside is that the megabeer folks like Budweiser
and Miller buy them up as soon as they get a customer base. I see Miller
bought Leinenkugel ouf of Wisconsin, but the beer hasn't changed (in case you ever get to 'Leinie's Lodge in Chippewa Falls)
Leinie's isn't really craft beer. I don't even know that it'd qualify as microbrew.
DeleteI think anything that exports beyond say a 3 or 5 state surrounding area probably doesn't qualify.
I've tried the moose drool. It's pretty good. I'm an ale guy though. I tend to stay in the 6-8% alcohol and 55-80 IBU. This isn't exclusive obviously as there are some brews that I really like that are outside of this.
Ethos by Tallgrass: 6.8% IBU: 110
Myrcenary by Odell: 9.3% IBU: 70
I kinda prefer ale over beer myself. The only downside to beer is the beer belly and since I'm currently maintaining my weight I only have one now when someone offers me one.
DeleteA number of hard cider brews worth trying as well.
DeleteYou're right about Leinie's Chris; it was around when I was a kid, and
Deletemaybe 75 years before that. It was the standard for N Wisconsin deer season, probably still is. Another neat thing about the microbrews, IMO,
is the clever names. Along those lines, there is a place next to the
Hanford Nuclear Site
that has their tables arranged around the brew tanks and all sorts of
nuclear physics names for their stuff. Interesting place, they lure college
kids, physicists, nurses and even old duffers like me when I go through
town. Every little burg seems to have one. Last year, I stopped to take a leak in a tiny town and ended up bringing home a growler of Backseat Blonde . I imagine MN has them from Little Falls to Faribault to Detroit Lakes. Fun
Just within about 10 minutes from my house there are:
DeleteSurly Brewing
Indeed Brewing
Dangerous Man Brewing
Fulton Brewing
612 Brewing
Bauhaus Brewing
The list goes on: http://www.mncraftbrew.org/brewcations
Some names over here: Wicked Orchard and Old Dirty Bastard. Now if they can just have something in Lo-Cal.
DeleteCan we expect some pre-installed gay apps on the next version of the iPhone?
ReplyDeleteSome friends just left town for Mpls, where their gay son is getting married to
Deletean ex-pastor with two teenagers. Who takes who down the aisle? Who wears something borrowed, something blue? Do they sing 'Here Comes The Grooms? Very confusing. Kinda feel sorry for those two teen kids, ya know?
I don't recall Truman Capote making any grand announcements that he's gay, he kinda mentioned it in passing. I guess the Fred Phelpsters will be throwing their iPhones in the river.
DeleteWhile I have no desire or need for the ubiquitous APP, I still try to understand the
ReplyDeletetechnical and social compulsion driving the phenomenon.
Yet the majority of app reviews are negative. Folks are finicky. Take the AVG Sweeper or Cleaner app, most folks spent time moaning about the tiny battery icon that's always at the top of the screen. If people are this OCDish about their apps you'd hate to have sex with them.
DeleteSo, yesterday was all saints day. After the sermon it dawned on me the similarities between the lowering of the bar on canonization and the selection of Nobel peace prize recipients. How does John Paul II make the grade?
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing because of his suffering at the end. If this is the bar though then every Ebola victim should be made a saint.
DeleteHe kissed the Quran for crying out loud.
ReplyDeleteThe one I don't get is John XXIII and now they wanna canonize Paul VI.
ReplyDeleteJohn the 23rd is easy. Vatican II period.
ReplyDelete& they only required one miracle of him not the normal two.
ReplyDelete