According to last Thursday's PageSix Christopher Hitchens has written in his intro to the new book Certitude by Adam Begley and Edward Sorel:
"In my own lifetime I have seen a series of popes make public apologies to Jews (for the false charge of deicide and its consequences), to Protestants (for the Counter-Reformation), to Galileo to forcibly converted and exterminated South American Indians, to Eastern Orthodox Christians (for the massacres in the Balkans) and to Muslims (for the Crusades). One day if - just suppose - it is discovered that AIDS was a worse affliction than the condom, rather than the other way around, the necessary admission will have to be delayed for years by the fact there was once a sacred dogma involved."
Now I realize Hitch is a hard-drinking man and some of the hardcore stuff he is regulary accustomed to really make the grievances come out, about a week ago I had a couple of Rum and Pepsis and sank into some kind of weird depression and pretty much went over my shitlist and then some, hardly the mood to be in to waft off to a peaceful slumber but last I checked the Roman Catholic Church cannot by force of law forbid you from buying a Trojan or a Ramses. The thought occured if people don't listen to the Pope on the matter of abortion why would they over a piece of latex or lambskin? If one is going to cruise down the ole Hershey Highway with different males every week it's pretty much a given you haven't been following much of Church teaching lately anyway. As Oscar Wilde once said to be witty without being charming is an unpardonable mannerism of style. Hitch is from the Ann Coulter school of thought though from the other side, everyone you disagree with even the mailman who once casually threw your mail on the porch, nuke everything in sight, it's a psychic massacre and he's wallowing, going down the hallway and opening up the next door to the next poor shmuck who has pissed the guy off ("hey you [insert insulting witticism of choice]"). H-Block and his scorched earth policy, you accidentally bump into him one day and you know how someone's eyes are always darting up and down when they're first talking to you? they have an opinion, it ain't very relaxful to be around such people which finally brings me to the conclusion you can totally disagree with the Church on condoms and everything else under the sun and still think Hitchens is a dick:)
To put the teaching that condoms should not be used on the same level as the Crusades is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, and this ties in with the mind control through censorship you also discussed. I think people are afraid of the Catholic Church having influence in our lives, because they want people's moral authority to be the government rather than the Church. Therefore, they need to put down the Church.
ReplyDeleteSoapie may not like to hear this, because he doesn't think religion is important, but our Founding Fathers did think that we need a moral society in order to have the republican government they established. They recognized the importance of churches as being the moral authority rather than the government filling that role.
"Soapie may not like to hear this, because he doesn't think religion is important..."Um excuse me. I take umbrage with that.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that religion per se has a place within politics. However this is not to say that morality shouldn't. Indeed you are quite right on the subject of morality and the Framers subscription of its importance in our society. But, one mustn't be a Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Buddhist, etc. to have a concept of morality.
If religion is the means by which someone comes to embrace the concept of morality then I would say that is a good thing. It was not a prerequisite for me personally.
Well here's what gets me about people like Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher. Sure religion has a downside and I can blog the better part of a week about this but it's like this Jamaican chef I once worked with, hated people of faith totally and never saw any positive role for religion in people's lives. I see BOTH, the negative of course but also that it inspires people, helps them through various crises and as for charity that just goes without saying. All things considered I think faith is important and even if you took religion out of life totally the problems of the world would still exist and this is the problem with Hitchens and Maher's formulation, the problem ain't God but Man.
ReplyDeleteBuilding on Beth's second comment above that's why I don't agree with the position taken by some liberals to totally strip away any religious influence or symbolism in the public square. Most often this involves the Nativity Scene in a public place so we'll discuss that. What I don't like about the liberal position or call it the ACLU liberal position is this: they hold that say hardcore porn is free speech and needs to be protected but the creche is somehow offensive and should be banned if it's in a park or in front of a courthouse. I say we can have it BOTH ways, protect offensive speech and expression like porn but also allow religious expressions like those at Christmastime to work as a sort of counter-cultural influence. We SHOULD have that cultural resistance, that social yin-and-yang tension whereby a man who just rented Fuck Fest Vol. 27 passes by the manger scene and it might make him think or feel slightly ashamed of himself. The social conservative position might be to ban the porn but allow the creche, the polar opposite of the ACLU but I say throw everything into the mix which is really basically what Life is all about this way everyone should be happy.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to our Founding Fathers and religion, this quote I am getting from The 5000 Year Leap, and it is from Washington's Farewell Address:
ReplyDelete"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion."
"...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." - George Washington"But, one mustn't be a Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Buddhist, etc. to have a concept of morality." - Soapster
ReplyDeleteSoapie, I believe you and George Washington are saying the opposite.
ReplyDeleteLiberals act like this Church/State separation thing is engraved in the Constitution but wasn't this phrase found in one of Thomas Jefferson's personal letters and the libs have built on that? Getting back to the ACLU if you make it a point of allowing the Bad you'd think it would be self-evident that you should more than allow the Good and so it points to a secular agenda IMHO.
ReplyDeleteI was reading a similar argument posted to Rockefeller Republican's blog and he was discussing religion and to paraphrase what I wrote there, the left is trying to take religion out of the equation so as to replace religious morality with morals set by the left and their agenda.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing The 5000 Year Leap discusses is that the separation of church and state was meant for the federal government, not the state government.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we are saying the opposite. He's merely saying to be cautious about doing so. I'm sure he had his reservations about entertaining the idea (as did many of the Framers with regards to a whole host of issues).
ReplyDeleteI know people that are atheists or agnostics and I can tell you quite matter of factly that their conception of morality is no more or less prevalent than are those of people I know who are devoutly religious.
In fact, there is an argument to be made (and I may very well catch hell for suggesting it but oh well...) that sometimes those who are very religious will in effect use that religion as a cloak of sorts; a shield against committing immoral acts (certainly this has bore true within the Catholic church).
I think Z will appreciate the anology here but it's like one of those magnetic drawing pads that came with the plastic red pencil. You fill the page with a whole host of profanities only to lift the page and merely clear it all away and thus start over.
And for the record, totally down with the nativity scene at Christmas. Because you see, I don't happen to subscribe to this notion that "we're a Christian Nation". Rather I happen to believe that "we're a Nation of Christians". There's a big distinction there. A nativity scene is merely a reflection of the majority's view.
Not a fan of legislating this majority view though.
Whether you like it or not, we were a nation founded upon Christian morals and teachings, but of course unlike other nations the way we worship is not dictated by the government, we are allowed to worship however we wish.
ReplyDeleteAnd my saying that religion helps guide people's morals does not mean that they cannot have morals without religion, I am simply pointing out that churches can be an important part of a moral society.
Indeed Beth Madonna has said she likes churches in the sense of the architecture, the statuary, the paintings, the stained-glass. In short she likes the whole sensual experience of being in a church and I can't judge that, I like the experience for the same reasons she does but I try to get more out of it so even if one is not Catholic or Christian there is just something about a church that fits quite nicely into everyday life. Now to be perfectly frank there have been times I've sat through Mass perfectly bored, bored with the priest maybe or the homily but indulged myself in some of these other things so heck Madonna and the Church may not have gotten along over the years but it's a start.
ReplyDeleteNot sure how to take Hitchens. Tell ya what Z, you, Soap, Beth & me meet ol Hitch for a few at his favorite bar...see what comes off,
ReplyDeletethrow a few ideas around..ya know?
First off I'd tell him to stop hating. Yeah get your jabs in but when the job ain't fun anymore hang up the gloves. He doesn't like Kissinger, the late Mother Theresa, the Royal Family...that's alot of ground to cover in one night. Actually he's kinda right about the Royals.
ReplyDelete