What d'ya think of this sermon? This past Sunday the pastor got into a whole homily on narrow is the gate that leads to heaven and few there are who enter it. Now that's fine as it was the reading for the day but I never heard one like this one before. He said what he's about to say is gonna sound somewhat harsh and he proceeded to say not all our friends, relatives, not even everyone in this parish who has passed on are in heaven. So I felt maybe he's alluding to Purgatory but then he went on -- "and not all of them are going to heaven." I started gauging the audience, hard to read but I did hear a couple of positive reviews afterwards which surprised me but let's put the brakes on this theological locomotive before we careen off into the ravine. Since the sermon was so unrelievedly negative, bleak I had this thought that yeah maybe the gate that leads to heaven is indeed narrow in which case it just might take that much longer for everyone to enter through. A single-file deal but that's not what I thought he had in mind and I would have been shot down if I raised my hand and offered my heretical counterdeal.
Who winds up in heaven, who doesn't, how many, all these are theological mysteries and it is the height of theological arrogance for a pastor, any minister to opine such. He knows this? God told him this? and what about him, hmmmmm??? This was crossing a line but organized religion does cross lines every now and then. How is this different from the radical Muslim believing all non-Muslims are infidels headed for the pit? So there I was sitting in the back of the church getting uninspired, depressed even. I've suffered enough in this life, you mean there's more to come in eternity? It was a surreal moment and so I was going over my tinnitus-like condition, my irregular bowels down through the ages, all those nights of poor sleep, psycho bosses and all the other slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and the icing on this crap cake of Life, woes in the romance department but you mean to tell me that's only a warmup?
You're killing me!
Your pastor's line of thinking certainly doesn't jive with the idea of a forgiving God.
ReplyDelete"...and I would have been shot down if I raised my hand and offered my heretical counterdeal."
ReplyDeleteThat's a problem.
In fact I was rather shocked he said what he said. When you stop to think about it it's not just religion that should inspire. Any movement or political philosophy has to inspire, it can't just be conservatives or liberals are bad. I read some liberal blogs that every day say this conservative is bad or those are horrible for this reason and that but where is the inspiration? very negative instead of saying well what are they offering?
ReplyDeleteThat comment was poetic imagery.
ReplyDeleteI thought you, as a writer of a blog, understood that.
There are no real circles in hell, because there is no hell. Even John Paul II said so. And if he said so, it must be true:
"Last July he [JP II] brought this approach to his discussions of heaven and hell. To the surprise and alarm of many, he casually reconfigured Catholic images of the afterlife. As he spoke about them, on two successive Wednesdays, he managed to make both places sound like poetic imagery rather than "real" sites of divine or satanic reality. He seems to have concluded that, just like the story of Adam and Eve, heaven and hell are metaphors -- or, at most, states of mind.
Heaven is the human being's meeting with God, he said. No surprise there. But he added: "Metaphorically speaking, heaven is understood as the dwelling place of God." Metaphorically speaking? For centuries, heaven has existed in the Christian imagination as a real place. True, philosophers, back to Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, have speculated on its metaphorical quality, but who knew that a pope could think and speak this way? But then, John Paul is a philosopher. He loves the rigours of philosophy and sees much of life as a seminar on truth.
A week after the talk about heaven, he had more striking news. Hell, he said, is not a punishment imposed by God, despite what everyone has always said. No, it's just an unwise choice that humans make. The images of hell in scripture, he suggested, are taken too literally. Actually, hell is the condition of those who separate themselves from God, "the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God." Artists trying to follow scripture have depicted hell as a world of fire controlled by devils with pitchforks. The Pope thinks those are metaphors, every one of them."
SOURCE
BTW, I personally do not suffer from pain, frustration, and emptiness as a nontheist. My life is full, relatively happy, and fulfilling. And I accept death and annihilation as a natural part of it. I do not fear it; I accept it.
Well apparently although there is no God for her she believes that somehow when it comes to conservatives who bash Al Gore there is some type of reckoning to be made after death perhaps in some other dimension. I leave it to her to explain the cosmic possibilities here, frankly I'm puzzled. I have heard her allude to hell a few times usually when she's having an aneurysm regarding some conservative. Rush? he's going to hell.
ReplyDeleteThe other day at work I'm talking with this older Italian woman, you know the type like out of some old Boris Karloff movie, accent and all and I told her in the hot weather it's good to use your ac in your car for a little bit but turn it off later since it burns more gas. She then said you have to enjoy life because when you close your eyes that's it. Gave me the creeps.
ReplyDelete“I would love to see Shaw's reaction when she realizes there is an afterlife, THAT would be heavenly!”--Beth
ReplyDeleteYou’ll never see it, because that will never happen. I am just as sure there is no afterlife as you are sure that there is. Our difference is in attitude. Yours is smug, with a tinge of cruelty in it, hoping that perhaps there‘ll be some payoff for your triumphalism in my accepting as truth something I categorically reject. For me, there isn’t a shred of evidence for an afterlife, so I don’t believe it. You believe it on faith. Faith is defined as a belief in something for which there is no evidence. My atoms will mingle with all the other atoms of once living things, and my consciousness will revert to where it was before I was conceived. I’m not frightened by that at all.
“I have heard her allude to hell a few times usually when she's having an aneurysm regarding some conservative. Rush? he's going to hell.”--Z-man
When I alluded to the “hell” of Dante’s Inferno, I was using poetic imagery. There is no heaven or hell. Even Pope John Paul II has said so. He and I agree on this. Imagine!
"Last July he [John Paul II] brought this approach to his discussions of heaven and hell. To the surprise and alarm of many, he casually reconfigured Catholic images of the afterlife. As he spoke about them, on two successive Wednesdays, he managed to make both places sound like poetic imagery rather than "real" sites of divine or satanic reality. He seems to have concluded that, just like the story of Adam and Eve, heaven and hell are metaphors -- or, at most, states of mind.
Heaven is the human being's meeting with God, he said. No surprise there. But he added: "Metaphorically speaking, heaven is understood as the dwelling place of God." Metaphorically speaking? For centuries, heaven has existed in the Christian imagination as a real place. True, philosophers, back to Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, have speculated on its metaphorical quality, but who knew that a pope could think and speak this way? But then, John Paul is a philosopher. He loves the rigors of philosophy and sees much of life as a seminar on truth.
A week after the talk about heaven, he had more striking news. Hell, he said, is not a punishment imposed by God, despite what everyone has always said. No, it's just an unwise choice that humans make. The images of hell in scripture, he suggested, are taken too literally. Actually, hell is the condition of those who separate themselves from God, "the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God." Artists trying to follow scripture have depicted hell as a world of fire controlled by devils with pitchforks. The Pope thinks those are metaphors, every one of them."
SOURCE
But the pope was wrong about hell being a condition of being separated from a god or gods. I live a productive, reasonably happy life[there is no such thing as uninterrupted happiness] and I do not despair about its ending. In fact, not believing in an afterlife allows me to concentrate on making this one as good as possible for others and for myself, and I do that without hoping for some sort of heavenly reward, I live like that because it’s the right thing to do.
“She then said you have to enjoy life because when you close your eyes that's it. Gave me the creeps.”--Z-man
Telling you the truth gives you the creeps? She'd be better at giving sermons, it appears, than the guy you listened to the last time you were in church.
Beth said: "I would love to see Shaw's reaction when she realizes there is an afterlife, THAT would be heavenly!"
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that there is an afterlife? How would you convince Shaw or provide some proof?
Just wondering.
What reaction would you have when you realize that there is no afterlife?
Well, if you're dealing strictly out of the Bible, it says right there not everyone's going to heaven. If you're dealing in Catholic theology, to be perfectly honest as much of the canon is coming from Rome as it is out of the Writ, and insofar as a Church presumes to offer indulgences of 962 days for reciting the Novena to the Blessed Mother six times, it would seem that they believe they've got a pretty precise view on things. Either way, within their own contexts, they seem to be on relatively solid ground.
ReplyDeleteEven growing up Catholic I never subscribed to this opinion that you get 80 years (or whatever lifespan) of whatever misery and then suddenly everything's coming up roses and lollipops in heaven. Similarly I have always found it difficult to believe that you get this 80 years and then all eternity hinges on one decision. These things are essentially beside the point here but it's just another example for me of what I perceive to be misapplied logic.
But people will believe how they believe and as for many it's a very emotionally-based psychological need they will choose whatever set of beliefs they find the most comforting. And that's all fine.
But sensu stricto, he's got theological backup for his thesis; it's in the Bible, and if Rome has given its imprimatur, so much more credibility (in Church view) for him.
My heaven is here on earth.
ReplyDeleteI just read what Satyavati devi dasi said. And all I can say is, take your IslamoNazism, crap, and stick it . These IslamoNazi savages are just sick. Of course as an Infidel you can expect worse treatment, like rape and having you head cut off.
ReplyDeleteThe world is finally standing up to these Nazis like the ones who want this masque at ground zero. We must continue to shine the light of truth and justice in their faces and watch them scurry like the disgusting cockroaches they are.
Israel has been vilified for years for the crime of just protecting its citizens. We have long marveled at their restraint in face of overwhelming lies and provocations. Their citizens have been attacked by bombs, rockets and the ‘community of nations’ for simply defending themselves.
Now it seems that the anti-Semitic forces have finally overplayed their hand. Israel has no choice but to either commit national suicide or end the Arab assault once and for all.
As I and others predicted, Muslims had become emboldened in the last 30 years in pushing their Satanic cult down the throats of the West. But have they gone too far? With the planned opening of the super Mosque near Manhattan 9-11 and having it open on the 10 year anniversary of Sept the 11th, is a planned slap in our face.
Our Dear leader has reminded us all over and over again that just because the terrorists are Muslim doesn’t mean all Muslims are terrorists.
ReplyDeleteWill someone please tell Our Dear leader that we have been tolerant long enough and it has gotten us no where.
Where has HIS "reaching out" to the Muslim world gotten us?
It brought us more terrorists that's where.
It brought us the Fort Hood shooter, the Christmas Bomber and the Times Square Bomber as well as the other planned terrorists like the Fort Dix plot etc and etc.
So how’s that “reaching out” crapola working for you Mr. Obama?
I just read what Satyavati devi dasi said. And all I can say is, take your IslamoNazism, crap, and stick it .
ReplyDeleteYou extrapolated this out of me discussing the Bible, Rome, and what they each say about going to Heaven?
That's a hell of a reach, pardon the pun.
I'm not sure what "IslamoNazism" means, but as I've already made clear, antiSemitism is against my religion, and I believe ALL religions deserve the same right to practice, whether or not I subscribe to their tenets.
We get enough recycling from the movies and television Z. How about something fresh and new?
ReplyDeleteSoapster, you haven't posted anything new at your blog!
ReplyDeleteYeah Saty the pastor has some theological backup but my problem was with his specificity. How could he say that some in the parish that have passed on are not in heaven and some may not even be going there? That's theological arrogance and overreach. I'm sorry but I go to church partly to be inspired as I am in sore need of that of late. He should have talked about hell in a much more general sense and how can he be so sure he ain't gonna wind up there himself?
ReplyDeleteI agree, anyone who thinks they know with certainty what happens after we die is quite arrogant. I do believe in heaven myself and a loving, forgiving God who has prepared a place for us all. How quickly after we leave this earth we get to that final place, who knows? But I get this belief from the words of Jesus, it's not just something I came up with on my own.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, that is my BELIEF, not my actual knowledge, and I am willing to say I could be wrong. And I know that God will forgive those who weren't believers, but I do think they will be shocked when they realize their wrongness. It is only the uber arrogant I wish I could "see" that realization.
Well, maybe he was basing it on simple math: the word is that not everyone goes to heaven, therefore we can assume that not all our folks have managed to get there.
ReplyDeleteIt's like if we know that 10% of product X is defective, and we have produced 1000 of product X over the last year, we can safely assume that we produced 100 defective ones.
I'm just reaching here; not exactly trying to defend the guy, but maybe trying to get in his head a little and see where he was coming from.
I've had a bunch of new posts at my blog beth. Whatchu talkin' bout?? Some original some re-posts but all worthy of commentary if I do say so.
ReplyDeleteSaty but is that the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church that not everyone makes it to heaven? I know it's in Scripture but is it actually a dogma of the Church itself? I had thought it wasn't.
ReplyDeleteWell on a sidenote remember when I blogged about visiting that Marian shrine in CT? prayed for a few things partly as an experiment to see if they'd come true and I promised to keep the reader abreast. Well the results are in and I would say they largely came true although it took time. The prayer intentions were personal to me but I do believe that visit did change things over time.
ReplyDeleteFrom all my knowledge of the canon, if you're Catholic it's pretty easy to get to heaven, but if you're in a state of sin then you have some issues. For most Catholics even if they've lapsed, when it comes to the wire they get confession, communion and usually extreme unction and then they're all right. But if you're totally lapsed and don't do those things, or if you've left the church altogether and followed some other church or belief, then I think you're SOL. Now some of this in the wording might have changed in the recent ecumenism, but I think that only applies to people who were never Catholic... being Catholic and walking away would present a big problem and one that I think if it isn't addressed like I outlined above, you're not headed to the golden condo in the sky. Remember that even with all that ecumenism, for people who are Catholic to start with (or who convert) there's really no salvation outside the church (though the concession lately is that SOME people outside the church are pretty darn good and might have a shot at it).
ReplyDeleteI think for Catholics it's easier to pretty much guarantee where you're going; just get the sacraments and you're set; but maybe this priest knows a few people who ran off and became Hare Krishnas, or married outside the church (thus in fornication, like we've been for 18 years now), and he's basing it on that. Again, not defending him, just trying to give a view on what his mindset might be.
I decided to do a little research on this. This came from Catholic.com.
ReplyDeleteAre You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.
Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11–12).
If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).
The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11–12).
If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved," you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me."
I'm glad your prayers were mostly answered, Z-man.
ReplyDeletePerson #1: Catholic who murdered an innocent person but repented.
ReplyDeletePerson #2: Atheist who has never harmed anyone or done anything "bad".
In this purely hypothetical example do either of these two get to heaven?
You can see where this is going, I hope. The answer can't be "we don't know"
I have my own interpretation of "no salvation outside the Church." Let's say, just for the sake of argument here, that the Catholic Church is the one true faith and Jesus is really the Son of God who does all the saving and redeeming...well here's my take,
ReplyDeleteMembers of other religions provided they live good lives will be saved but Christ through His one true church will do the saving even if they aren't aware of this. It's like this, say you desperately needed a major heart surgery but had no health insurance and some mysterious benefactor comes along to pay for your operation, you'll never know who that Anonymous is who saved you. Maybe someday you will towards the end...know what I'm sayin'? Now Anonymous didn't care what religion you belonged to but he saved you anyway but then again I'm always looking for the most positive spin on things. It's my nature.
I dunno. I can't speak for Rome. The Catholic Church sees this in a different light than any Protestant denomination and that's the way they've always been. That's why I decided the best way to go was to check with them themselves and let them tell it.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this would qualify as an Article Of Faith or whatever but it's their deal and their interpretation and that's how they lay their laws down.
For me it's a whole different book and a different situation. But in the Catholic world, Rome is The Authority with whom you disagree at your peril.
Well I ran the pastor's controversial sermon past my friend this morning and we both agreed not everyone going to heaven has not made it to the level of an infallible and dogmatic teaching of the Church. My friend thought maybe he was just trying to scare people. For me it lacked inspiration and that was the problem, I mean my life is hard enough ya know?
ReplyDelete