Went on my almost daily now long hardcore walk on the beautiful and rustic bike path here that stretches on for miles and the usual crowd: rollerbladers, joggers, old couples walking, fat folks doing the slow shuffle, hounds taking dumps and your ever present bicyclists. It is the law in NYS now that bicyclists have to wear a helmut (that's another issue for another day) so anyways these two young black fellas are peaceably riding along on their two bikes without helmuts of any kind, more like baseball caps and this yuppie on a bike coming the other way, you know the superfit kind without an ounce of lard with the silver designer helmut passes them and right before passing them goes "your heads!! Guys where are your helmuts?!?" and he then proceeds on his way shaking his head, the roving lecturer. Now a libertarian would never do this, I can't imagine soapie in a million years doing this and I could care less. "Where's the condoms guys?" Busybodies, nanny-staters, buttinskies, benevolent stalkers, overall Pains-In-The-Asses.
Listening to Hannity years ago and they were talking about the fat of the land so the caller goes when he walks into a restaurant and sees a Mom giving her fat daughter an ice cream sundae he wants to go up to them and say "what are you doing?" and Hannity apparently agreed. Why do they care so much? I have as my new thesis that Sarcasm is the Defense of Right Order and the two black bicyclists could have said "fuck off hedge fund manager" but didn't but they would have been well within their rights. Libertarianism is looking better to me day after day and would have absolutely nothing to say to that Mom and her porker in Friendly's.
On my leisurely walks among the babbling streams and the forested trees with the goldfinches darting about and the turtles basking on their logs I'm generally mulling over problems, Life's overall suckiness condition. Folks not wearing their helmuts or husketeers sucking down a banana split at Carvel doesn't enter the whole existential picture here. I'll bet most folks are like this, it's my ex just made my life hell and Why the Hell Am I Here not that guy just took a piss in the woods. There was a guy at Barnes & Noble once sitting in one of those big soft comfy chairs reading a mag. He had shorts on and his sack was hanging out. I didn't even say anything.
Get involved.
"Liberal on a Bike"?
ReplyDeleteZ-man, you're stereotyping us again. That big ol pickup with the guy stuffing his chops with
fastfood...that's me!
Oh, wait a minute..out this way the pickup always has an AK-47 in the window rack and a couple pitbulls in the bed. OK, you win this one....
You're on a paved/gravel path for christ's sake. How f'in retarded do you have to be to simply fall off of your bike and crack your skull?
ReplyDeleteWere me, I'd have taken a broom handle and speared it into that busy body's front spoke.
Pains in the asses is spot on.
I get aggravated when I see people on motorcycles with shorts/sleeveless shirts/flip flops (yes, flip flops) and so on. In NC you have to wear a helmet and people do obey that one. But I think folks who are willing to get on a bike dressed like that are just stupid. Or maybe they've never got a good look at road rash.
ReplyDeleteI don't say anything because that's not my style, but I'm thinking it, for what it's worth.
And Scott is a fanatic about being properly dressed on a bike; even on the hottest day he makes sure he's got all his limbs at least covered with something.
Now people who have their 2 yo in the front seat with no baby seat, I do say something to them. Someday it'll probably get me shot.
The only time I open up my big mouth and say something is when I'm defending Everyman. In Barnes & Noble once (what is it about Barnes & Noble?) and it was about twenty to nine at night and I'm in the restroom and the custodian is in kind of a hurry to clean up and go home I guess so he knows there's a guy in the stall and he starts barking out you have to get out now so I told him to let the guy finish his dump and some other words to that effect. Sarcasm, an important weapon in the Defense of Right Order.
ReplyDeleteBut that's the thing soapie, in a liberal's mind it could happen. When I work at night one of my duties is to take all the garbage from the day upstairs on a U-boat and crush it in the compactor. Actually we have two, one for regular garbage and one for cardboard because of course in today's world you're forced to recycle but that's another issue for another day. Anyway they don't leave the key in the cardboard compactor anymore because say some kid might wander all the way upstairs and get in some trouble, it might have been in the news once. Now what are the odds of this happening so I have to wander all over the place looking for a manager with the key because he explained to me that's the Law now and he can't leave the key in there. That's time wasted right there when you have other stuff to do. There are laws probably right now that I don't even know I'm breaking.
ReplyDeleteBB liked this one, when I blogged once about how in supermarkets folks will just come in and ask a thousand questions like where is the cat food? where is the coffee? when there are clearly signs marked for each aisle. I said they probably vote Democratic because it's obvious they can't figure things out on their own, need somebody to hold their hand at every turn. Dependence on others, can't do for themselves so is that stereotyping? yep but I believe in it (a little).
ReplyDelete"But that's the thing soapie, in a liberal's mind it could happen."
ReplyDeleteJesus H...if we ran around trying prevent the potentiality of harm ever being inflicted upon someone we'd all live in bubbles (provided their material wasn't detrimental to the environment or our means of breathing or....are you getting this??)
I'm soooo not a people person.
But this is exactly where liberalism is headed. Gotta go now, I have to take up the garbage later.
ReplyDeleteHmmmmm. Interesting, yet People always Point to Extremes in the Support of Their Position, and I am the First to Admit that Regulations can be Excessive and Out of Hand, yet what if Businesses were not Required to Provide Handicapped Access to their Facilities, or What if Swimming Pools were not Required to be Fenced?
ReplyDeleteThe Seat Belt and Helmet Laws Fit in the Category of Requiring People to Protect Themselves, which Could be Argued is No Bodies Business, yet Being Cautious about Protecting Others from Someone Else's Negligence Makes Sense and is Reasonable.
You Don't have to be a Libertarian to Disagree with Excessive Regulation. Republicans Take this Stand as well, yet not all Regulation is Excessive.
The Biggest Problem with Libertarianism, though, is their Stand on Abortion. They Believe that the Woman has the Right to Choose and that that Issue is No One's Business any more than the Wearing or not Wearing of Bike Helmets, yet that is not about the Woman's Rights, but about the Rights of the Unborn Child, so be Careful, Z, before you Allow Soap to Persuade you of Something that I Know you are not Going to Entirely Accept.
ReplyDeleteYou should know my position on the issue before you proclaim to speak on my behalf about it. Z knows it well.
ReplyDeleteSoap,
ReplyDeleteI Was Responding to the Statement "Libertarianism is looking better to me day after day." and Addressing the Subject of Libertarianism. You are a Libertarian. If I Assumed Something I shouldn't have, I Apologize, yet I don't Agree with the Libertarian Philosophy.
Libertarians rock!
ReplyDeleteHi Beth,
ReplyDeleteYou're Pro-Life too. I don't Understand.
Yeah I mean that whole
ReplyDelete"Do as thou art shall be the whole of the laws until you violate the rights of another" thing is soooo out there....[rolling eyes]
I don't agree with Christian Conservatives or Progressive Leftists or really any faction that seeks to use the force of government to impose its will upon me. He who uses force, intimidation, or coercion to govern me is a usuper and a tyrant and I declare him my enemy.
Calm Down Soap,
ReplyDeleteIf we are Talking about Abortion, then the Baby has Rights that are Being Violated. Besides there are all Sorts of Abortion Related Issues, such as Parental Consent, Informed Consent, Etc. that are Side Stepped by Liberals.
I Appear to be Hitting a Brick Wall, though, with you and that is why I Came to this Particular Blog to Talk to Z.
"the Baby has Rights that are Being Violated."
ReplyDeleteI challenge you on this. Therefore, if you are certain of that assertion, explain. What rights are being violated, how are said rights defined, and if those rights are being violated, who represents the interests of the "baby" (a minor obviously), and against whom?
"He had shorts on and his sack was hanging out. I didn't even say anything."
ReplyDeleteWell, Z-man you could have
observed, "Hey guy your manhood is outstanding".
Few months back we were wandering around one of those art fairs, which I like because of all the
provincial foods. Guy selling Chinese stuff starts hollering at me in
Mandarin or something.
Couldn't understand him, but he was clearly excited.
Finally his wife, who spoke a bit of Idahoan,
came over and whispered in my ear, "You-a zipper down
Mistah." I appreciated that..must have been one of those Chinese liberals.
This Whole Capitalize Every Word Thing May Be Some Kind Of Stylistic Affectation But It Becomes A Bit Irritating To Read For Those Of Us Past Winnie-The-Pooh (And A.A. Milne Only Capitalized Important Words Not Every Word).
ReplyDeleteIt's Important To Remember That How You Present Your Message Is As Important As What Your Message Is And That If You'd Like It To Be Evaluated On Its Own Merits And Not For How It Looks Then It Should Be Presented In A Way That Focuses Attention On Its Message Instead Of Its Appearance.
Thank You.
Well, I don't Want to Get Into a Whole Abortion Discussion Right Now. I'm not in the Mood and anyway it has Already been Done on my Blog a Long Time ago at Abortion/Fetal Development.
ReplyDeleteI Short, the Right that is being Violated is the Right to Live and these Rights are Represented by the Constitution and I Guess "Against Whom" would be all who are Involved in the Decision to Abort the Baby.
Satyavati devi dasi,
You Know, I don't Capitalize Every Word. It's just become a Habit and Habits are Hard to Break. I Wonder, though, why we are not Allowed to Politely Suggest that someone Put a Helmet on, but it's OK to Tell them to Stop Using so many Capitals.
I Guess I could Apologize, yet Changing is too much Effort for the Sake of someone like yourself who I do not Hardly Know. I might Consider Changing for a Closer Friend who is more Polite and does not Mention Childish Things, such as Winny the Pooh.
The important part of what I said was this:
ReplyDeleteHow You Present Your Message Is As Important As What Your Message Is And That If You'd Like It To Be Evaluated On Its Own Merits And Not For How It Looks Then It Should Be Presented In A Way That Focuses Attention On Its Message Instead Of Its Appearance.
Just a bit of marketing advice.
"I Short, the Right that is being Violated is the Right to Live and these Rights are Represented by the Constitution and I Guess "Against Whom" would be all who are Involved in the Decision to Abort the Baby."
ReplyDeleteGo back and read the Constitution Lista because you will find little if any mention of what you are claiming therein.
I believe what you are trying to assert is what is written, not in the Constitution but rather, in the Declaration of Independence.
It is there where it is written:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[72] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."
Not a single one of those 3 unalienable rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence impose a single burden upon another individual in their attainment.
What's more, rights are a concept that do not exist in the confines of the womb. They exist in real life among actual living beings since it is only in this context that recourse can be taken against those that infringe upon those rights.
The only right that exists wherein an unborn child is concerned lies with the mother in her right to carry to term and to take recourse against someone who poses a risk towards the exercising of that right. What you are talking about and trying to assert is not a right to live/life but essentially a right to be born; to pass through the birth canal as it were. No such right exists. I know this is going to sound tragic to Pro-Life advocates but I'd have you suspend your feeling on the matter and analyze the concept of rights and their application within the world and argue otherwise.
Hi Satyavati devi dasi,
ReplyDeleteYou know what? I do not know you at all, so I don't really have any reason to feel annoyed at you. I had a run in with Beth awhile back in relation to this very same subject and I do not remember it as being a polite encounter.
As I think on it now, I realize that I may have my guard up a little because of that previous encounter.
Life isn't easy and communication isn't easy, especially in politics and I like to think that I have tough skin, but quite often I don't.
I am complying with your suggestion only because your second attempt at communicating your message to me was more polite than the first, so I guess I'll just say Thank You and leave it at that. Politeness is also good Marketing Advice.
The only right that exists wherein an unborn child is concerned lies with the mother in her right to carry to term and to take recourse against someone who poses a risk towards the exercising of that right.
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU!!!!!!!!
Good grief, I might just have fallen in love with you. :?
Before I plow through the rest of these comments not to worry Lista. In the matter of abortion since you're obviously dealing with another human being libertarianism doesn't apply and many libertarians also happen to be pro-life (e.g. Ron and Rand Paul). I'm talking about the general thrust of libertarianism though as it relates to everyday things like too many laws...
ReplyDeleteHi Soap,
ReplyDeleteYes, the Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is Actually in the Declaration of Independence. To Understand the Constitution, though, we need to consider the Intent of the Founding Fathers and the Declaration of Independence Explains their Intent and the Protection of the above said Rights is the Stated Purpose of Government.
"Not a single one of those 3 unalienable rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence impose a single burden upon another individual in their attainment."
This is not Entirely True, for once a Child is Born, Parents can get into Trouble for Issues of Neglect and if the Neglect results in Death, it is Considered Murder.
"rights are a concept that do not exist in the confines of the womb. They exist in real life among actual living beings..."
That is Exactly where the Controversy Lies; First in whether or not the Unborn Baby has Rights and Second in whether or not the Baby is an "Actual Living Being", yet Science is Very Clear on the Second of these.
This Relates to the Right to Life, not just the Right to be Born, because the Baby is Absolutely and Definitely Alive.
Another Note to Satyavati,
You know. I can use lower case letters when addressing you, but to change my over all habit in relation to everyone is effort and even in Marketing, there is a Cost/Benefit Analysis that is done and effort is a Cost.
I heard what you said and will consider it, yet in the end, I will be making my Own decision about how to apply your advice.
Soap can a pregnant woman on death row be executed? No, they wait for the child to be born. Kind of contradictory eh?
ReplyDeleteMy friend says when he goes to work he feels like he's entering an alternate reality, gangster rules...had a rough one so I'm gonna go home and pan sear a nice tuna steak in my new cast-iron Emerilware pan and have some broccoli and rice w/cheese (add some jalapenos and onions to that). It's too much for me right now, tomorrow:)
ReplyDeleteContradictory to whom? I wasn't a member of the House that wrote the law. The whole thing is a contradiction when you think about it. Save the unborn...execute the mother.
ReplyDeleteoooh... Emerilware....
ReplyDeleteWhen I got married I rec'd a beautiful set of TFal. Over the past 20 years they've been one by one dumped as they got too old or too whatever, and now I have a mishmash of different types and so on. Part of this is because we have some pots that are kept strictly vegetarian; and another part is that I find I only really need/use certain sizes and that I like some pots better for some things than for others.
And some are just sentimental: I have a yellow and white enamel pot that my mother bought in 1961 when she first got married for something like $1. It has some really nasty gouges in the enamel but I can't part with it and it's still perfect for spaghetti.
Cast iron rocks and even knowing this I only have 1 cast iron item, a round griddle, but it's perfect for making chapatis and tortillas and things like that.
For making rice (and we're rice snobs) I have a stainless steel pot with a GLASS lid (very important). For most other things I like nonstick; for me I have a 12" stainless steel nonstick frying pan and a variety of tiny ones.
Probably the most unlikely pot I have is one I bought at Rose's 5 years ago for $3. It's like 1 quart and has a perforated locking lid and it used to be nonstick. I love this thing and I can't find another one like it so beat up as it is I have to keep it. For a while when I was living in the trailer by myself it was THE ONLY cooking utensil I had and for the basics it was all I needed.
Let's not even get into terracotta and other miscellaneous bakeware. I will say however that regardless of whatever new study on bacteria comes out I will never, ever relinquish my wooden spoons et al and that the brass and bamboo skimmers you get at the Chinese store for $2 are indispensible... and everyone should own a two tier bamboo steamer.
And what do you think of macrobiotics? I was going through my cookbook bookcase and found an old book I had on macrobiotics. I have mixed feelings on it. In principle it's a good idea but I'm not sure why the only healthy foods come from Japan.
ReplyDeleteIn Response to Soap,
ReplyDeleteThe Reason why Saving the Unborn, while Executing the Mother is not a Contradiction is because the Baby is Innocent, but the Mother is not. Personally, I think that's Obvious.
Well what is the mother instances of rape? A willing participant??
ReplyDeleteWell, you know the ho asked for it, Soap.
ReplyDeleteWomen who get incest'd and raped enjoyed every minute of it.
It's their own fault.
Apparently.
ReplyDeleteI dare say the moral compass of some is more like a top spinning wildly out of control.
We've had this Discussion before too, Soap, and I Think I Basically Told you that there is not a Large Enough Minority that Believes in the Extreme of Forbidding Abortion in the Case of Rape that we should Worry about it. To allow Abortion on Demand Based on the Extreme Example of Rape is Side Stepping the Real Issue. Forbidding Abortion in the Case of Rape is just Something that is not going to Happen. There are not Enough People Fighting for that much of an Extreme.
ReplyDeleteYour Last Comment is more Like an Insult than an Argument. Not that I'm Offended, cause I'm not. It's just that I Think that is a Silly way to Argue.
And Anyway, the Answer to your Question as to Where the Right to Life it's Stated in the Constitution is in Amendment XIV, Section 1,
"nor should any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law."
And if you want to Know whether or not the Fetus is a Person, see the Discussion Under the Post that I Left a Link to Earlier.
Here it is again.
Abortion/Fetal Development
Perhaps I Should Add that my Previous Comment that, "Saving the Unborn, while Executing the Mother is not a Contradiction because the Baby is Innocent, but the Mother is not.", Needs to be Kept in Context and the Context was the Conviction and Execution of Someone who is in Trouble with the Law. Rape is a Separate Context and a Separate Issue.
ReplyDeleteAnd Soapie, of course the burden of PROOF is on the woman... just let her try and prove she wasn't begging for it.
ReplyDeleteThey ought to make her have that baby and keep it and make it illegal for her to be on any kind of assistance or social welfare program for the rest of her life.
Maybe that would teach the slut to behave like a proper lady and not put herself in these situations.
Personally, I think the Taliban does a great job on this issue and hopefully we'll be getting a copy of their laws to model ours on.
Context? You want to talk context? Do a little research on the 14th Amendment then and put that into its proper context. Good grief.
ReplyDeleteMy comment regarding the moral compass of some is not intended as an insult but instead as a statement of fact. I encounter individuals like yourself daily Lista. And, while I'm sure they are good people, their political and philosophical ideology is so full of holes and inconsistencies that it is astounding. It's something of a widely held practice where such individuals reach their conclusions first and then try to support it piecemeal. It's like fixing a single picture from 20 different puzzles.
ReplyDeleteInvoking the 14th Amendment without care or concern as to its context as you did and then attempting to use it at a means to bolster your argument (all the while speaking of context) is a perfect example of this.
Consistency is the key to credibility.
Interesting.
ReplyDeleteYou Know, Soap, you Never Used to Roll your Eyes and say things such as "Good Grief" to me. You Used to Actually be a Little more Polite. I Wonder what Happened. You Think that the Tea Party Person who has been Teaching us about the Constitution hasn't done any Research?
I Can Roll my Eyes too, you know, but I Won't because it is not Polite.
You Can't Assume, Soap, that those who Disagree with you have a Messed up Moral Compass. If I'm Out of Context, Explain it to me.
You Could say that the Context has to do with Citizenship, not just Personhood, and that a Baby is not A Citizen until Born, yet that doesn't change anything, because Non-Citizens are still Under our Jurisdiction and Subject to Our Laws, when in our Country.
I Simply will not allow you to Make me Feel Stupid, Soap. In my Opinion, People who Argue that way are the Ones who Display Ignorance. I Used to Think you were Better than that and I Still do Think that. You are just Off in an Insulting Mood right now for some Reason.
Saty,
No One is Suggesting what you said.
"You Could say that the Context has to do with Citizenship, not just Personhood, and that a Baby is not A Citizen until Born, yet that doesn't change anything, because Non-Citizens are still Under our Jurisdiction and Subject to Our Laws, when in our Country."
ReplyDeleteThe context for the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments came about as a result of the Civil War (hence why they are termed the Civil War Amendments) and the ending of slavery. They were the result and subsequent response to the question of citizenship regarding freed slaves.
What you've attempted to do is to invoke the 14th Amendment in support of your anti-abortion position. This is clearly taking the Amendment out of its context and applying it somewhere else.
I abhor that practice in your instance just as much as I abhor progressive Democrats who apply the 14th Amendment as a response to their support of the anchor baby phenomenon (wherein a child of illegal immigrants is born in this country and granted citizenship).
As for my pissy attitude, it's going to be that way for awhile I'm afraid. However, it's going to be geared and targeted at what I see as inconsistencies in someone's political or philosophical ideology.
ReplyDeleteWith the Tea Party being infiltrated by the likes of the Neo-Cons et al. and with the onslaught of individuals who proclaim to now suddenly be defenders of the Constitution (but have no tolerance for religious freedom or freedom of association, etc.), it is going to be increasingly necessary to pin these folks down.
Speaking of Chinese markets I was at one recently and got two Korean pears. Different shape than our pears, bigger and different taste too. I liked 'em, mildly sweet. My friend is into seaweed, egh!!
ReplyDeleteSaty, dunno what macrobiotics is. I'd have to google it.
ReplyDeleteYeah Lista soapie has a 'tude going but my only point in bringing up the pregnant woman on death row was not to condone capital punishment which I don't but to show that the law in that case does recognize the existence of another human entity. I'd ask soapie do you support feticide throughout the entire pregnancy? I know you're heavily influenced by Ayn Rand but I've given up on her for various reasons. In fact I think she's a bad influence (even though dead) and was more than a little extreme.
You're right Lista about abortion and rape, it's a total red herring, a real tearjerker and despite addressing this issue many times before they like to bring it up again (and again and again). So I guess you and me and the others can't bring up the old documents here because we're not scholars, authorities on the subject as he is and as for pinning us down on our alleged inconsistencies do that too much and you start losing your friends. You wanna go that route fine but it's an awful lonely road as another blogger has found out.
ReplyDeleteI'm not driven by the life issue thus Rand's position on it doesn't trump her position on individual rights, capitalism, morality, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'm inspired by a whole host of individuals all of whom were/are advocates for maximum liberty and are fierce critics of statism. From Rand to Hayek to Mises to Rothbard to Goldman, Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, et al those are the folks that speak to me.
Say what you will about Rand but when she spoke to Mike Wallace some 60 years ago, she foretold all this shit happening right here and right now just as the others I've mentioned have similarly done the same.
Hi Soap,
ReplyDeleteYou know what? I am amazingly calm right now and to prove it, I am going to avoid hitting the shift key. Arguing from emotion does very little in the area of convincing any one to convert to your way of thinking. Amazingly you were much less emotional when we had a discussion on my blog similar to this one and towards the end, we discovered that we were actually in agreement on a lot of things. Perhaps you do not remember it.
Abortion & State Sovereignty
The very last comment explains why inconsistencies exist in governmental policies.
Also, if Context is important, then the entire Constitution needs to be viewed in the Context of the Declaration of Independence, thus, the Phrase that men are "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". You need to keep your argument about the Importance of Context Consistent, Soap. Otherwise, you too are Inconsistent.
"No Tolerance of Religious Freedom or Freedom of Association"
Come on, Soap! I have no Idea at all who you are Talking about.
Yes Z,
I Understood exactly what you were getting at with your Pregnant Woman on Death Row Example. Soap's Scholarly and Authoritative Attitude does not Impress me. I'm not Exactly Stupid and I'm not Intimidated either.
I never claimed to be an authority or scholar and quite frankly I find the abortion issue to be a topic not worth my time and effort. I will not ever advocate implementing the force of government upon a woman for the sake of birthright. My thoughts on the matter are moot and I happen to think it is between her and her maker. Whatsmore, I know christians that would challenge the pro-life crowd on their protestations of God's position on the matter. According to him the bible says (and I'm paraphrasing here) something about if you take someone's child you have to give them a goat.
ReplyDeleteAs for alienating blogger friends, if one isn't willing to always question and challenge their belief system in an effort to find its inconsistencies (if there be any) and vindicate what they know to be true, then that to me is a shame. If what you believe is virtuous, true, and moral then you should be willing to stand up for it.
"No Tolerance of Religious Freedom or Freedom of Association"
ReplyDeleteCome on, Soap! I have no Idea at all who you are Talking about.
Again not directed at you personally unless of course you've taken an opnion against the construction of the Islamic cultural center in NY.
the Phrase that men are "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
ReplyDelete...which, of course, was written by men who bought, sold, and owned other human beings who for tax purposes were considered 3/5 of a person.
"Land of the Free" is a feel-good propaganda motto. We use it to pat ourselves on the back and proclaim our superiority over other nations, when the reality is that freedom has always been selective in America; throughout its entire history there have been groups chosen for marginalization and discrimination. The group shifts routinely and the criteria for selection can be religious, ethnic, economic, sexually based or racial, but there is, has always been, and will always be a chosen group in America that receives the national short end of the stick. It's a form of patriotic cognitive dissonance, and it typifies America.
The 'Land of The Free' is not for all.
Depriving of an Abortion has Nothing to do with Force. It is Simply the Taking Away of Something, not the Force of Something. I Could use this Same Line of Thinking in Order to Suggest that when we do not Give to the Poor, nor Provide them with an Immediate Job, we Force them to Starve to Death. Thank Goodness this doesn't Happen in this Country, but that is Only because Libertarians are not in Charge.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that I understand the Parallel between Giving someone a Goat for their Child and Abortion. Perhaps those who Pressure Women into Abortion, or for that Matter, Persuade them through Lies about the Fact that "It's just a Clump of Cells." and "the Procedure is no Big Deal." should be Giving these Girls a Goat in Exchange for the Pressure and Deception.
Personally, I Think that your Reaction to those who are Opposing the Building of a Islamic Cultural Center in NY is a Bit of an Over Reaction, for it is Location that is being Protested, not the Cultural Center itself.
Saty,
Just because America isn't Perfect is no Reason to Quit Striving for more Equality in the Freedom. The Claim of Imperfection has Never been a Good Argument for not Striving to do Better.
"Depriving of an Abortion has Nothing to do with Force. It is Simply the Taking Away of Something, not the Force of Something. I Could use this Same Line of Thinking in Order to Suggest that when we do not Give to the Poor, nor Provide them with an Immediate Job, we Force them to Starve to Death. Thank Goodness this doesn't Happen in this Country, but that is Only because Libertarians are not in Charge."
ReplyDeleteFunny thing, the only thing I deduced from that is that your belief system FORCES me against my will to provide a safety net for complete and total strangers I've never even met just as your stance on abortion is such that government is used as a tool to FORCE a woman to give birth to a child she did not consent to.
Seeing as how there's nothing moral about the initiation of force against another human being, it really is no wonder you wish to skirt the issue of rape/incest instances and instead write them off.
This is precisely why debating you is futile Lista. The manner in which you distort people's comments and premises makes it impossible.
"Personally, I Think that your Reaction to those who are Opposing the Building of a Islamic Cultural Center in NY is a Bit of an Over Reaction, for it is Location that is being Protested, not the Cultural Center itself."
ReplyDeleteOh...forgive me. So it's not the practice of religion they have a problem with just property rights....okay...I think I got it.
You were saying previously something about the 14th Amendment and no person being deprived of the right to life, liberty, and property....
Soap did you have a bad sherm or something?
ReplyDeleteYou are Tiring, Soap.
ReplyDeleteAs to Forcing YOU to Provide a Safety Net, I guess I Could Ask you, Why are You Forcing me to Provide a Safety Net for those who use Abortion as a Form of Birth Control? On the Other Hand, it could be said that Democracy Forces the Minority to Go Along with the Will of the Majority. Like it or not, that is the Nature of Democracy.
The Point I was Making about Depriving of, rather than Forcing, is that before Abortion Existed, Women did not have that Choice. How can you Call the Presence or Absence of an Additional Option that didn't Use to Exist any Form of Force?
Prior to the Existence of Abortion, it was Nature that Forced the Issue, not Man. If this Fact Bothers you, then you will Need to Take it Up with God.
"That she did not Consent to."
Why are we Still Talking about Rape? Why are you Stuck on an Extreme that most Pro-Lifers are not in Disagreement with you about? What about Parental Notification, Informed Consent, Abortion on Demand, Governmental Funds for Abortion, Partial Birth Abortion, Etc. Etc. Why are you simply Stuck on the Rape Issue? Give it a Rest.
Also, you Must Remember that No One is Forced to Raise the Child. Adoption is a Forgotten Option that is Often Over Looked by those who Push Abortion.
I'm not Skirting the Issue of Rape and Incest. I've been Agreeing with you, or at Least Politically I am. If you want to Know how I Actually Feel on a Personal Level, I've been Meaning to Write a Post about it and maybe I may even do so.
You Claim that when you Argue, you Point Out Inconsistencies, but when Others Point Out your Inconsistencies, they are "Distorting People's Comments". What a Convenient Way for you to Look at it.
If you can't Understand Why Many People are Opposed to the Location of the Islamic Cultural Center, you are Incredibly Naive.
Z,
I have this Effect on Arrogant Men Quite Often. He Probably Thinks that he is Making me Feel Angry, yet what he Doesn't Realize is that I've been Chuckling and Laughing the Entire Time. What a Horrible Crime I've Committed, being a Woman who Knows how to Present Intelligent Arguments.
"Why are You Forcing me to Provide a Safety Net for those who use Abortion as a Form of Birth Control?"
ReplyDeleteROTFLMFAO!!!!
You have got to be joking with that one. Here I am advocating dismantling of the state and you think that I'd support federal funding for abortion???
Oh that's rich....LOL too rich....LOL
"Soap did you have a bad sherm or something?"
ReplyDeleteIt's a funk. It'll pass at some point. Lest you forget, I live in the most liberal urban district in Minnesota. I haven't had a Caribbean vacation for 3 years. I'm due. Maybe the gun range can cure it.
She Smiles and Shakes her Head and then Pauses because she Understands what it's Like to be in a Funk, so she Manages a Sympathetic Glance and Sighs, as she Calmly says...
ReplyDeleteHow am I Supposed to Know what you Believe, Soap. The Only Abortion Issue that you ever Address is Rape and you Don't Talk about any of the Other Abortion Issues.
Actually, though, Perhaps I should Pull Back and Allow you to get out of your Funk and then maybe we can Talk more Reasonably to Each Other.
Abortion has existed for as long as women have gotten pregnant. If you doubt, I can refer you to The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (at least 5K years old) and the AyurVeda (older than that). Herbal abortifacients have been known, and used, for milennia.
ReplyDeleteIf people believe that abortion is used for birth control, then the answer would be to make birth control universally available and free for all.
Beyond that, I find it appalling that a law would deny me the right to do as I wish with my own body. This amounts to sexual slavery and is institutional discrimination on a huge scale.
It is the equivalent of one religious group perpetrating their own beliefs about what a woman has and has not a right to do with her OWN BODY onto everyone else.
This body is mine and was given to me to do with as I will. The consequences of my actions are mine and therefore I am responsible for them. No person, government, or institution has any right to tell me what medical procedure I can or cannot have done to it.
If we can outlaw abortion, we can mandate sterilization.
This entire argument being presented still does not address what anti-abortion people refuse to acknowledge: outlawing abortion will not stop abortion. It will merely drive it underground, and force women who are exercising control of their own bodies to endure midieval treatment and care.
....he likes that^^^^ comment.
ReplyDelete"How am I Supposed to Know what you Believe, Soap. The Only Abortion Issue that you ever Address is Rape and you Don't Talk about any of the Other Abortion Issues."
ReplyDeleteWithout liberty one has no life. This is why life in prison is the moral equivalent of a death sentence and why people risk death to flee Cuba and come to America.
Why I focus on the rape/incest issue is because there is a faction within the Pro-Life movement that does not hold exeptions for those instances. Because life and liberty are mutually inclusive, to hold a position that a woman who is impregnated (through no fault of her own) must carry that child to term is Anti-Life in that is suspends the woman's individual freedom and liberty for the sake of a cause that is not her own.
I do not believe we are put on this earth to serve as sacrificial lambs to the interests of others. Individuals have freewill and thus they should exercise it in the manner they see fit. Wanna help the homeless?? Be my guest. Wanna devote your life to AIDS awareness in Africa?? Whatever floats your boat. But, anyone that uses government or direct force as a tool to make me accept/sanction/or devote myself to a cause that is not of my own choosing is a usurper and a tyrant as I've said before.
This extends to making me pay for abortions, dog parks, professional sports stadiums, light rail transit, artist designed drinking fountains, or any other onslaught of programs/items that I will never in my lifetime use.
My thoughts on the subject of abortion largely echo Saty's believe it or not. You can legislate the practice away just as we pass laws to mandate people wear their seatbelt or wear a bike helmet or whatever. It doesn't make the practice go away.
If I have sexual intercourse and do not take adequate means to protect myself from the consequences of that action, I assume the risks that come with that (STD, Pregnancy, etc.) and thus as a responsible individual I accept that outcome. That's where I stand.
I'd hope someone else would behave similarly but you know what? If they choose another course then the onus is on them.
In the interim, I'll work my ass off to try and change the law so that I personally do not have to fund someone else's abortion. That's the way it should be.
We shouldn't bail them out anymore than we should bail out banks, auto manufacturers, etc.
Bailout only exacerbates the practice.
Backtracking just a bit to
ReplyDeletethe bike helmet and related things. I see NYC
is going to ban smoking in public places? I'm pretty tolerant and can put up with some second-hand smoke, it would be the million taxis and their exhaust that smokes up your Big Apple. We all have our druthers in the matter, and if I could impose on other's rights, I take those &%$@! cellphones that people holler into
in the grocery store, church, parks and restaurants and put them where they would do the most good....is that Libertarian, or am I just an old crank?
For Some Reason, my Comment is not Posting. Perhaps it's too Long, so I'll Break it Down.
ReplyDeleteHi Saty,
As to the woman's "OWN BODY", I discussed that with BB-Idaho once. You will find it at...
http://wwwramblingsoflista.blogspot.com/2008/04/abortionfetal-development.html
Interesting. I wasn't able to Post the Above Web Address in Link Form, but you can Find the Link above when I Posted it before.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, If you just type the Words "Own Body", "Mother's Body" and then "Membrane" into the "Find on this Page" Area, you will Find what was Written on this Subject.
Or just read the Initial Post, Day 1; and the Following Comments; BB-Idaho, April 21, 2:30 PM; Beth, April 21, 8:50 PM; Lista, April 21, 9:43 PM and then the Last One; Lista, April 25,6:22 AM.
"This body is mine and was given to me to do with as I will."
Actually, your Body was given to you by God and He has given us Guidelines that we are to Follow. I guess that Part of my Argument could be Argued to be Religious, but the First Part of my Argument is Scientific.
If the Emphasis is on the Freedom of Choice, then those who Choose to Endure "Medieval Treatment", have done so by their Own Free Will and are Responsible for the Consequences. Once Again, how can the Removing of One of the Options (Modern Medical Abortion) that at One Time wasn't Present be Called Force? Unless you were Raped, No One Forced you to have Sex. You Choice to Take that Risk.
Ok Soap,
ReplyDeleteI'll Post on the Subject of Rape. Just Give me a Minute before I do so.
For now, I'm just going to say that the Pregnancy was not the Fault of the Baby either and yet the Baby Suffers the Worst of Consequences for something that was "No Fault of his or her Own".
This is a Complicated Issue with no Easy Answers. I'm Glad that you do not Agree with Governmental Funding of Abortion. Gee! We're Even Funding it Over Sees. Can you Believe that?
Thanks for a Good Discussion. I'm going to Check Out Now.
Salty,
Read the Links I've Left, if you Want to Know the Reasons behind my Positions on the Subject of Abortion.
Actually, your Body was given to you by God and He has given us Guidelines that we are to Follow.
ReplyDeleteThis assumes that you and I either follow the same religion or that you believe yours is somehow superior and that I have to follow whatever he said.
Not in America, honey.
My body is legally mine and I can do with it whatever I want. And I'll fight any law that tells me any different.
And no, women should not be forced to endure MIDIEVAL TREATMENT and unsafe procedures simply for exercising their RIGHT to do with their OWN BODIES what they want to.
"For now, I'm just going to say that the Pregnancy was not the Fault of the Baby either and yet the Baby Suffers the Worst of Consequences for something that was "No Fault of his or her Own"."
ReplyDeleteThe fundamental difference Lista is that an unborn has no mental faculty to comprehend such consequences. Moreover, as I stated previously, rights are not applicable to the potentiality of the unborn.
And Lista:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the annotations and bibliography of all your previous writings on the subject.
I don't plan on reading them, but I really appreciate the time and care you put into creating such an extensive list of things you've already said somewhere else.
And my name is Satyavati. Not Saty, not Salty, not anything else. What you choose to do with that information is up to you, but there it is.
Hi Satyavati,
ReplyDeleteSorry about calling you Salty. That was a Misprint. A lot of People on the Blogs have Nick Names, but if you don't want one, then I'll Respect that.
I had a feeling that you might say something similar to what you said about my God's Guidelines Comment and that is why I said, "that Part of my Argument could be Argued to be Religious, but the First Part of my Argument is Scientific."; That is that Science does not Support your Conclusion that the Fetus is your "OWN BODY".
Also, I wanted you to know that I was feeling a little bad about my Last Paragraph above because it sounded a little Cold. I've been Talking to Libertarians for so Long, that some of the Coldness of their Thinking as Rubbed Off on me. They Believe in Choice and Responsibility and Offer Very Little in the Way of Mercy and Grace.
The Truth is, though, I do Understand what you were saying about those who Turn to "Medieval Treatment" and this Reality Bothers me, yet the Negatives of One Idea Need to be Weighted against the Negatives of the Other and I've come to the Conclusion that when Abortion on Demand is Available, there are more Negatives than Positives.
I'm actually a little Sorry that we had to Meet in a Setting in which I've been Feeling just a Little Aggravated because of my Dislike for Libertarianism.
I have Worked with Pregnant Teens and it is not Uncommon for the ones who Choose Abortion to Feel Regrets. There is Actually a Condition called "PAS", or "Post Abortion Syndrome" and among the Symptoms are Guilt, Sadness, Remorse and even Nightmares and Flash Backs. Some Cry whenever they see Babies. Mostly this Happens because these Girls are Lied to about the Nature of Abortion. They are Told that the Fetus is "Just a Clump of Cells", "Not actually a Person" and that the Procedure is no Big Deal.
It is not at all Uncommon for these Girls to Feel Pressured into having an Abortion and the Pain they Feel Afterwards is Considerable. So Please don't Think that I am a Heartless Person, because I really do Care. I Care more than you may realize.
Soap,
ReplyDeleteAll that you have Said is Debatable. There is Significant Evidence that the Fetus does Feel Pain.
There are Brain Waves as early as 6 Weeks, the Baby Responds to Sound and Touch at 7 Months and whether or not the Unborn have Rights Continues to be Debated.
The bottom line is that forcing a woman to bear a child she does not want is tantamount to sexual slavery.
ReplyDeleteIf you can force her to bear children then you can force her into sterilization.
In extremis it's conceivable that women could be mandated into becoming baby machines.
To allow legislation that mandates what medical care a woman may or may not receive is heinous.
And all this 'rape' business: this completely ignores some salient facts: does the rape have to be proven before the abortion is allowed? You've effectively cut off the woman's rights that way, unless you think you can arrest, arreign, indict, try and convict someone in 90 days. That's if you actually have a suspect. Meanwhile, the woman has to go around 24/7 unable to get away from the trauma that's been inflicted on her and perpetuated by the repressive society in which she lives.
Imagine if you or your preteen child were raped by a stranger and became pregnant, and whether you'd want, or want your child to have to live unable to get away from the horror because the law says you have to live with it.
"There are Brain Waves as early as 6 Weeks"
ReplyDeleteScience?
"By the end of this week, your baby may be 1/6 to 1/4 inch (4 to 6 millimeters) long." Science.
The Church has long pondered the problem, the
'quickening' usually being the defining factor. As late as 1205 AD, Pope Innocent III wrote:
"a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."
Early in the 13th century he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life."
The Church continued to struggle with abortion, because it was and apparently had always been
common. Aquinas adhered to the 'quickening' rule.
Finally in 1558 Pope Sixtus V issued 'Effraenatam" by which any carrying out an abortion were subject to the death penalty. A couple years later Gregory XIV revoked Sixtus V, and
determined the 'quickening' to be 116 days. Thus the morality see-sawed until 1886 when Leo XIII decreed that abortion, even to save the mother's life, be prohibited.
Thus saith Science and thus saith the church. Perhaps the gov't should as well? Perhaps not..if it took the church a couple millenium to figure it out, even prior to much science..what do we know of the mother, her reasons, her concerns, desires, agonizing, health and conscience that we know better than she?
..we do not.
I keep coming back to the Computer today and Maybe I shouldn't, but that's just the way Today is Going.
ReplyDeleteSatyavati,
People Keep Thinking that if Abortion is not Allowed, then the Only Other Option is to Raise the Child. Adoption is the Forgotten Option. No One is Being Forced to Keep and Raise a Child that they do not Want.
We are not Talking about the Extreme that you Mentioned. For the Most Part, I do not Believe in Extremes, though, I did Just Post Something that is Sort of Extreme, yet for the Most Part, I sort of Avoid Extremes.
My Aversion to Extremes is Probably why I Waited so Long to do the Post that I just did Relating to Abortion and Rape. It just Relates to Something that I Read at the Pregnancy Center that I've been Working at and to be Honest with you, the Information has Surprised me, just as much as it will Probably Surprise you.
BB,
"What do we know of the mother, her reasons, her concerns, desires, agonizing, health and conscience that we know better than she?"
Actually, Many Women do not Know that they are going to Feel as Bad as they do Until After the Fact. Many Women are so Traumatized, that they just Feel Numb. They Block Out their Feelings and Remain in a sort of Trance until it is Over.
I just Did a Post on Abortion and Rape, but I Need to Also do One on Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS). I was Meaning to do these Posts a Long Time Ago and Never did Get Around to it. Oh well.
You ARE, of course, aware, that children sit awaiting adoption for years while languishing through the system, that white children are adopted quicker than minority children, that disabled children are adopted even slower, and that once they get out of infancy, they're pretty much SOL.
ReplyDeleteYou are, of course, also aware that adoption laws are ridiculous and make things amazingly difficult in terms of adoption.
You're also aware that just having to endure a pregnancy that originated in a traumatic event is traumatic.
Right?
I also notice that you really didn't respond to any of my questions. Referring me to some other writing of yours somewhere else isn't really helpful. I'm not going to go read it.
Before I analyze these comments I'd ask soap and Saty why is abortion a religious issue in your view? why can't a law or social policy dealing with the issue be nonsectarian? why do pro-choicers always drag God into the equation?
ReplyDeleteAll I said was that I was given this body to do with as I pleased.
ReplyDeleteLista was the one who corrected me to say that GOD gave me this body with guidelines on how to use it.
That would imply that whatever God she believes in would be making pronouncements that were somehow applicable to me regardless of whether I believed or didn't.
This isn't a religious issue for me. It's my body. Who are you to tell me what I can and can't do with it? That's my stance. No religion involved.
Problem with libertarians and choicers in general is they talk about the issue so abstractly and in so doing risk sounding coldhearted. BB if abortion is the taking of a human life let me be abstract here and say what does the mother's feelings matter anyway? Some Mom kills her kid we don't say well she was suffering at home and couldn't take it anymore. My angle is this: why can't we just go with a pro-life bias and send that message out and this has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not. This is that Conservative Convergence I was talking about, that we view abortion not as a positive social good but rather a negative social indicator.
ReplyDeleteBB Mayor Bloomberg is nuts. I feel like you too. You have your peeves and I have mine. Let's say I can't STAND to be behind some old WW2 vet driving too slow, my emotions say pass a law say over 75 or 80 can't get behind the wheel. Now my intellectual libertarian side prevails and says the better way is to go with freedom.
ReplyDeleteNot a religious issue for me either.
ReplyDeleteLista,
ReplyDeleteIf you should become pregnant and don't want an abortion, you don't have to have one. No one will 'make' you have an abortion. You will never be 'forced' to have an abortion.
Why, then, since no one is 'forced' to have an abortion, is it so vitally important to people to refuse people who want them the opportunity to have them safely?
No one's stopping you from having a full term happy joyful pink and blue pregnancy. You are absolutely free to do that. YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE WITH YOUR BODY. If this means be pregnant and deliver, then jolly good and knock yourself out.
Where it becomes hypocritical is in that it's not enough for people to have the freedom to 'NOT' have an abortion. They aren't satisfied with that. Instead, they have to take away the freedom to 'HAVE' one from everyone else.
So it's like, you can do what YOU want, but I can't do what I want.
And people invoke all kinds of God And Saviour quotes to enhance their moral self-righteousness and so on.
Of course, moral self-righteousness was also behind slavery and most of the imperialistic behaviour of the last few centuries; the savages NEEDED Proper White Men to educate, engage and elucidate their souls to save them from the blazing hells they would otherwise surely fall into.
Salyavati
ReplyDelete"You ARE, of course, aware, that children sit awaiting adoption for years while languishing through the system."
Older Children maybe, but not Babies. There is a Waiting List a Mile Long for Babies. Even the Disabled Ones are being Adopted much Faster than you'd Expect. You Need to Check the Date of your Statistics, for Abortion has Caused a Considerable Shortage of Available Babies for Adoption.
Your Next Paragraph is Outdated too, for Adoption is way Easier than it Used to be and Opened Adoption has become much more Common, that is when you are Allowed to Interact with the Parents of the Child through Letters and you can Receive News about the Child, as well as Pictures.
Each Birth Mother, Adopted Couple Arrangement is Different according to what is Agreed Upon, but there are some Situations in which the Adopted Parents will Allow the Birth Mother to Participate in Holiday Gatherings and Actually Interact with the Child.
Yes, that's Right. I'm not Kidding. The Birth Parent is Usually Introduced as an Aunt or Uncle and the Truth is Held until a Time when the Involved Parties Decide is Appropriate.
Your Information is Way Out Dated, Sayavati. It's Different in each State of Course, but this Option should never be Written Off Prior to being Checked into.
"You're also aware that just having to endure a pregnancy that originated in a traumatic event is traumatic."
Do you Know that from Personal Experience, or are you just Guessing? Rape is Traumatic, Satyavati, Pregnant or not, and Abortion does not Erase that.
If you are not Willing to Read what I've Referred you to, then you don't Really Want to Know that Badly what my Opinion is. I've Forgotten the Questions now and so if you want a Response, you are going to have to Repeat the Questions.
What I Wrote on Rape, though, is Really Good and I do wish that you would at Least Read that One Post. So Far, there are Only Two Comments.
Abortion and Rape
You make very good Points, Z.
If you are not Willing to Read what I've Referred you to, then you don't Really Want to Know that Badly what my Opinion is. I've Forgotten the Questions now and so if you want a Response, you are going to have to Repeat the Questions.
ReplyDeleteThis is Z's blog, not a clearinghouse for referrals to your own.
Just thought I'd point that out.
Satyavati,
ReplyDeleteThis isn't about me. This is about the Clients that I've Seen at the Pregnancy Center that I've been Working at. Being Pressured into Abortion is Quite Common and the Emotional Results are not Good.
When you have an Abortion, Satyavati, You are Killing a Baby. To Call this Murder is Rude, yet it fits with the Definition of Homicide. The Answer to the Question of why it is Wrong is Obvious. It's just not Politically Correct to Actually say it. The Freedom to Commit Homicide, though, is not an Appropriate Freedom.
There is Help Available to those with Post Abortion Syndrome. Hopefully, I haven't Triggered any Symptoms in you with my Honesty.
Also, it is Interesting that you Brought the Slavery Issue up, because just as we Used to View Negroes as Property, we now view the Unborn as Property, just as you have Stated Repeatedly (MY OWN BODY).
Hopefully, I haven't Triggered any Symptoms in you with my Honesty.
ReplyDeleteYou may take your capitalizing, self-aggrandizing, presumptuous, holier-than-thou assumptions and secure them in a place that normally requires endoscopy equipment to visualize.
How dare you make any kind of assumption about me, or what fuels my viewpoints.
Seriously.
"The Freedom to Commit Homicide, though, is not an Appropriate Freedom."
ReplyDeleteWhat if I want to kill myself? Do I have that right?
Oh Satyavati,
ReplyDeleteI am so very sorry that I have made you angry, for I didn't mean to. When I said that the statement that you quoted, it was a genuine concern, not an assumption. I don't know if it's true or not, it was just something that I was concerned about and the concern is genuine.
Soap,
ReplyDeleteI can see now, that I may have to actually rewrite some of what I have said about the baby not being the same as "MY OWN BODY", but if you don't mind, I'd like to leave that for another day. I have annoyed Satyavati and therefore, we may need to take a break.
Sounds like we're talking about prostitution here.
ReplyDeleteHi Z,
ReplyDeleteI'm Afraid I'm not Following you.
For the Rest of you,
Here's what I Wrote in Relation to the "MY OWN BODY" Argument...
"DAY 1 - Sperm joins with ovum (egg) to form on cell-smaller than a grain of salt. This new life has inherited 23 chromosomes from each parent; 46 in all. This one cell contains the complex genetic blueprint for every detail for human development; the child's sex, hair and eye color, height, skin tone, etc.
"From the very beginning, even the very first cell is NOT a part of the 'mother's own body', but instead has his or her own unique genetic identity, so the statement that the mother should have the right to decide what to do with 'her own body' is not based on the facts."
"Biological dependence on does not equal actually being a part of that which is depended on. Babies continue to be quite helpless and dependent on their mother's care even after they are born. Also, just because one living entity is physically affected by another, does not make the two entities only one entity. Babies that are breast fed continue to be effected by the contaminates and also antibodies from the mother's body through the mother's milk. Does that mean that the baby is still a 'part of the mother's body' even after it is born?
"as to 'shared biochemistry',......The Umbilical Cord allows antibodies, enzymes and nutrients to pass, but not the blood of the mother and baby. The blood needs to be kept separate because quite often the baby has an entirely different blood type than the mother."
Saty keeps talking about a woman and her body. In abortion we're dealing with a body within a body, in prostitution we're truly dealing with her body. Prostitution remains mostly illegal in the States and yet pro-abortion argumentation would better serve the argument to decriminalize prostitution. I'm glad I introduced the 'hos into this debate.
ReplyDeleteThat's a really good passage you quoted. Soapie says he doesn't view abortion as a religious issue and that's good so why does he bring it up?
ReplyDeleteAbortion/prostitution. Are we apples/oranges here?
ReplyDeleteDoes a prostitute have freedom of choice? I know, I know, Z-man...
ask her pimp. Let's say
Mr. pimp says she 'has no control of her own body' in reference to a prostitute. Let's further opine that you & Lisa say 'she has no control over her own body' in reference to some woman that is pregnant. See the apple/orange thing here?
If she does not....who does? Color me confused.
"Soapie says he doesn't view abortion as a religious issue and that's good so why does he bring it up?"
ReplyDeleteWhy do I bring what up? Abortion or Religion?
Fact is, you can go on through my blog and you'll likely not find a single post on either so I don't know what you're drivin' at with that.
This is all so very fascinating to me this thing in which highly religous pro-lifers make the case of the mother and the unborn she is carrying as being two wholly separate things. And yet, in the same token, they hold a religious ceremony wherein a man and a woman are essentially joined into a union of one.
ReplyDeleteWell Z & Soap,
ReplyDeleteWhat I Wrote in my Last Comment has Nothing to do with Religion, only with Scientific Facts, so this Makes Soap's Mention of "Highly Religious Pro-Lifers" Irrelevant.
BB,
Women can Have Control Over "THEIR OWN BODIES", yet in Abortion, we are not Talking about "THEIR OWN BODIES", but instead the Body of another Separate Human Being.
Soap,
Even though a Man and a Woman are "Joined into a Union of One", this does not Mean that the Man is Free to Do with his Own Wife as he Pleases. If he Beats her, the Law will Step in and he is most Certainly does not have the Right to Kill her.
Comment by soapie on 9/14 @ 7:48PM:
ReplyDelete"Whatsmore I know Christians that would challenge the pro-life crowd on their protestations of God's position on the matter. According to him the bible says (and I paraphrasing here) something about if you take someone's child you have to give them a goat."
Simple B prostitution should be decriminalized because a woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases. Abortion involves the body of another and yet in our country what should be legal and illegal is completely reversed. Does that square with you?
ReplyDeleteI Never did Understand Soap's Comment about the Goat and Why that has anything to do with Abortion.
ReplyDelete