Wednesday, September 19, 2012
The Conservative Establishment & Mr. Romney
By which I mean Peggy Noonan and David Brooks and Bill Kristol and the usual bunch. What I don't get is this, conservatives critiqueing and in many cases negatively a fellow conservative while his campaign is still in progress, a kind of daily review. That's just dumb and you don't see liberals doing this and that's why we have this term "conservative elite" (oh and you thought only liberals could be elites). Yeah after the dust has cleared you can say your piece but with friends like these...I'm talking of course about the Mother Jones video and do I base my vote on off-the-cuff remarks? not really, I mean we're all human and what would be the point without living room chatter but if you feel they're that important then let's have The Collected Off-The-Cuff Remarks of Barack Obama. Need I reprise the quote about the hardcore 47% who will vote for Obama no matter what? you can google it. Now while it's an oversimplification and not in keeping with Emily Post I do believe Romney hit on a core of truth here and that's why everyone is so upset. Sandra Fluke's biggest turn-on is government and I'd say she is emblematic of what Romney was referring to. I've said myself that with the economy the way it is I'm amazed the race is still this close and how else do you explain it and keep staying politically correct? but again I'm not getting why certain conservatives are so upset with Romney's race, after all he is starting to say some very conservative things, things they've been saying for years now. Well if they know how to do it why don't Peggy Noonan or David Brooks or Bill Kristol run some day? but it's like those movie critics, they know all the finer points except to show us how it's really done:)
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Z-man... is anything these guys have said untruthful?
ReplyDeleteTheir job is to comment on events from a conservative perspective, not from a candidates perspective.
And yes, there were, and are many liberal commentators who were, and remain critical of President Obama, most notably Robert Scheer, Chris hedges, and Tavis Smiley...
Beyond that, many of us more liberal bloggers have acknowledged the weaknesses of Obama in both our posts and comments across the blogosphere.
I am not sure we saw that kind of criticism of the previous admin while it was still in office.
I feel that liberal bloggers are much more likely to use profanity than conservatives
ReplyDeleteAnd how about the liberal bloggers themselves who use profanity?
I find that’s the case on the web, where liberal bloggers can't seem to tell the difference between being civil or vulgar. I find that online liberals tend to use profanity a lot and many of the liberal bloggers even encourage comments and discussion that contain personal attacks, racial slurs, profanity and other inappropriate dialog, by such bloggers like Shaw, “Republskum Steve”, Octopus, Leslie Parsley, Sue, Flying Junior, w-dervish, GrungeGene, and the list goes on and on. It seems that Liberals always claim to support tolerance, and civility, but their use of vulgarity, and hate speech tends to put the lie to this claim.
MCT: we've done the realtime research on your claim right here on this blog. The VAST majority of the vitriol was unprovoked and coming from RIGHT field.
ReplyDeleteSlap me if I'm lyin, Z.
Conservative, no doubt libs have used some pretty colorful language...
ReplyDeleteBut you also won't typically see those same libs calling themselves the party of God, who clearly opposes such language, and then using that language.
If you think bad language is a sole event at the liberal blogs, you are just mistaken.
Now, what that has to do with Z-mans post is anyones guess...
Interesting subject, but I'll have to say that Liberal bloggers are more vulgar more than conservatives.
ReplyDeleteLiberals are more racist than conservatives;
Liberals are angrier than conservatives.
Liberals are less polite, and less courteous than conservatives.
But that's just my opinion and I stand by it.
Like I said: the research we did on this very blog gave us the result that the vitriol, namecalling and unprovoked attacks almost completely came from the RIGHT.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if that doesn't jive with what you'd prefer to believe.
"Well if they know how to do it why don't Peggy Noonan or David Brooks or Bill Kristol run some day?" ..same reason you and I don't: much easier to critique
ReplyDeletethan do an impossible job.
Too bad the media has lost all of any integrity it possibly had so that they might had informed the people about who and what they are voting for when they pull the lever for Obama.
ReplyDeleteRomney tells the truth when he says that almost half the American people receive government hand-outs and pay no income tax and the media makes it sound as if he don't care about almost half the American people.
Obama speaks like a card carrying Commie and it just slides by. It's disgusting.
We've already seen the results of Obama's Presidency and it has been disastrous in every way.
How do you know what a 'card carrying Commie' sounds like?
ReplyDeleteArchives, yes, it is true 47% of the American people pay no income tax. Through the generosity of programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit, signed into law by President Reagan, we, as a country have determined that some people, while getting paid, make so little that taxing them would make them even poorer and then the government would have to pay even more to them.
ReplyDeleteMany of those people that make up the 47% are veterans who are unable to get a job because of disabilities.
None of that is in dispute and if Romney had left his remarks there, this would have all blown over.
Many people in the GOP have been making this claim for awhile.
The problem was his calling them victims and saying they were not his concern.
Sorry, but he did say he doesn't care about those 47%.
So we have Mitt Romney making a remark at a private fund-raising dinner which apparently shocked at least half of the American public and the ENTIRE American Main Stream Media. Now what was it that he said that was SO shocking. Well, lets put it this way, He told the truth and apparently that was truly shocking! Why was it so shocking? Because it hit home and the Lefty American Media don’t want anyone to tell the truth about the Lazy, bunch people who live off the public, and the Government. Or as Mitt Romney said, 47% of the people that are living off the public dole, living off their neighbors hard work.
ReplyDeleteHe said: “There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what.” Almost half the American people receive government hand-outs and pay no income tax? That’s truly shocking. What was it that was SO shocking?
The fact that he said it, or that what he said is so true?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck --- it's a duck. The truth is the truth, no matter how you want to say it.
Dude and Z-man... folks keep carping, as Dude has, that this is a product of the lefty media.
ReplyDeleteHow then should we understand the number of GOP candidates who have disavowed his statements, saying they do not agree with his assessment that 4y% of Americans are government moochers?
Is the Wall Street Journal a lefty rag? Is the Weekly Standard? Bill Kristol, who championed Sarah Palin is not a lefty. How about Former GOP Senate Leader Trent Lott? Is he a lefty? Peggy Noonan? Former speech writer for President Reagan. Is she a lefty?
Come on guys think... you did not like Mitt at all during the primaries, but once he won, you were stuck with him, so you swallowed your disgust and accepted him as your guy to beat Obama.
Unfortunately, he has turned out to be every bit the crummy candidate you knew he was going to be.
Has the lefty media piled on? Of course they have. But when your own side is shooting you, maybe there is something to it.
Maybe Mitt just sucks and everyone is now seeing it.
Or Maybe Obama just sucks and the LEFTY Media refuses to see it..
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry Dave but you're disillusioned. Maybe you should console yourself by volunteering your local Democratic office. I'm sure they could use your strong, pragmatic voice to persuade independents, moderates, and swing voters to vote for Obama and the rest of the Democratic/Liberal ticket. Do something useful besides yelling at us Republicans and Conservatives and blaming us for the Democratic establishment's incompetence at winning wars. And their underhanded ways of winning elections.
ReplyDeleteNow we're learning that it was confirmed that although Obama can't find time to meet with Netanyahu, he has found time to attend a fundraiser with Jay-Z and Beyonce.
Obama is not a leader. He does not represent America, in fact He's so not on America's side for anything. And his second-in-command, the scholar, Joe Biden, is a clueless simpleton, who is one scarey heartbeat away from becoming the President of the United States of America..
You Democratic’s/Liberal’s are wrong on all the issues - wars, health care, economy, etc.. But you can't be taken seriously in policy discussions and should really shut up because what you folks keep saying is off the important subject and irrelevant. But, when Democrats lost elections in 2010, all of sudden the hippies became VERY IMPORTANT!! Somehow, the White house, the DNC, the DSCC, the DCCC and the entire rest of the well-funded Democratic establishment were helpless in the face of the Tea Party onslaught. But, also somehow, a ragtag bunch of disgruntled hippies were able to persuade millions of low informed Democratic voters to sit out the election through their incredibly powerful self-righteous pieholes. Obama is just not right for America, this is precisely the time to get him out.
How far down does this country have to go down before you Liberals stop drinking the Kool-aide? This inept little man that has no idea about leading this Great Nation. Obama feeds you a “crap sandwich, and you swallow it with a smile.
ReplyDeleteDude... Actually the "LEFTY Media" has been pretty critical of Obama and his policies. Probably because he has spelled them out. I guess my first comment where I listed some specific members of that "LEFTY Media" who have been very harsh on Obama.
ReplyDeleteAgain, what you and now Donna have failed to accept, acknowledge, or even try to respond to is the fact that, as Z-man pointed out, Rpmney is getting hammered by the the conservative media and GOP Politicians.
They are saying he is just plain wrong, clueless, incompetent, and is going to lose the election because he refuses to give any detail to his "policies."
These are not the words of the liberal lefty press.
Wonder why these people are thinking this?
Let me stipulate, for the sake of discussion, that Obama is the worst President we've ever had. Apart from that, please then tell me how come Romney is being called incompetent by leaders of his won party?
And please tell me why Romney is losing this election to such a person?
And Donna, could you please show me where I was "Republicans and Conservatives and blaming us for the Democratic establishment's incompetence at winning wars. as you charged in your comments?
Excuse me if I disagree with you Dave,. I think Romney's comments were truthful, timely and refreshing.
ReplyDeleteI think he has connected with reality for many Americans, but of course not with people like you who seem to agree that it's a good thing to be dependent on the government, and others who are satisfied with the the status quo. .
Apparently Donna, the number of Republican candidates for Senate continues to disagree with Mitt, and apparently you, that the 47% of Americans who, while paying plenty of other taxes, pay no income tax see them,selves as helpless dependent victims.
ReplyDeleteLike me, the prefer to believe that the majority of Americans who are out of work and on government aid would love to have a job if they could find one.
It is too bad Mitt said he does not worry about getting the vote of "those people."
Isn't it interesting that a majority of "those people," the 47% live in more conservative states?
How do you explain that?
I won't even try to explain it because that's not the way her meant it, and most people know that, except the Spon-masters like you and most of the others lefty progressives ..
ReplyDeleteBut thanks for the entertainment .
Darth has secret x-ray equipment that gives him special omnipotent knowledge of what Mitt Romney means in his very heart, that none of us can know except him.
ReplyDeleteWe'll start with Dave and Dave Peggy Noonan and David Brooks and Bill Kristol have every right to review as they see it Romney's campaign on a daily basis but my thing is when they do this it shows division in the ranks, disunity on how to proceed and I just think they should all just let it ride and play out and maybe some of the things that loom large in their minds don't loom so large in the minds of the voting public. I'm sure it's not easy to run for elective office and to me it smacks of a kind of carping, kinda rubs me the wrong way but to each his own take:)
ReplyDeleteSaty re to my blog lately: "The VAST majority of the vitriol was unprovoked and coming from RIGHT field."
ReplyDeleteThere's no denying that. Two things though, alot of that came from Darth but most importantly Shaw seems to have left and believe you me she'd tip the Vitriol Scale back to the Left in no time. It's like losing Babe Ruth or Derek Jeter.
Z-man... I guess I would ask what is the job of a opinion writer?
ReplyDeleteIs it to show unity, or to share their opinion, unified or not?
Can't we leave the cheerleading to FOX and MSNBC?
Again opine away but I would ask what is the purpose of such criticism besides writing a column? It's this nonstop opining that I find somewhat irritating, these oracles of conservatism who seem to know better. Again they need to ask themselves an honest question is it just to write something and have it in by deadline or is it to make Romney a better person, that maybe he'll read a Kristol or a Brooks and tailor his campaign accordingly? Also when can such criticism wait, is there ever wisdom in that? Look the race is neck and neck right now and this constant carping from conservative shakers of opinion it seems to me they don't even want their guy to win. It just seems dumb to me and you know what else? they're downright schizo. First they said Romney wasn't conservative enough now he's talking more conservative like with the issue of government dependency and that's not good either. They're mindfuckers and their mood changes day by day and that's because they write and opine simply too much. I mean take a break!!!
ReplyDelete& Dave you can be sure if this guy runs there'll be more of the same.
ReplyDeleteAh the 11th commandment. I'm sure these people would rather write about their guy in glowing terms but then people will be saying wtf are you BLIND?! So they don't want to be perceived as delusional...they need to maintain some kind of truthfulness or it wrecks their cred.
ReplyDeleteThe GOP has enough infighting going on to
ReplyDeletestart fight a civil war all the way to another presidential loss.
BB touched on it here. Sat and Dave it's not that conservative criticism of Romney is valid or not but too much of this will lead to another presidential loss that's my point. Hey Dave when Romney's private remarks at that private fundraiser down in Boca Raton in May came to light he pretty much knew he made a mistake, inelegant framing of the issue as he put it so if he already knew he made a mistake again what was the purpose of the criticism from conservatives? redundant and pointless imo since he already said as much. I've read enough Peggy Noonan pieces to know she overanalyzes every issue and candidate, has to put literally every thought down on paper and sometimes these pundits just need to shut up and take a few days off. You can overcomment you know, Romney picked his nose I gotta say something.
ReplyDeleteBut what was funnier was last night on 60 minutes when he said 'that was me, that wasn't the campaign'....omg, that was precious. It's like he was saying, 'oh, that was me talking to, you know, my friends, like being honest... not saying things like officially, like, things to make you vote for me." It was just precious.
ReplyDeleteZ-man, was he really saying he was wrong? That he misspoke? That he did not believe what he was saying was wrong?
ReplyDeleteI think that is where folks like Noonan and Kristol are coming from. They not only believe it was, as Romney says, "inelegant" but wrong.
And so do apparently many Senate and Congressional candidates in the GOP.
This is the war within the GOP. Can you be conservative, and moderate... or do you have to be Tea Partyesque?
We are not just talking about the death of the Rockefeller wing, we are talking about the death of the Reagan wing and those opinion writers believe they are defending that wing.
I consider myself a moderate voter who leans left. I have worked for and supported some GOP presidential candidates over the years.
If the Tea Party wins this war, the GOP will never field another candidate that would appeal to someone like me.
Now the purists can scream and bitch all they want that they do not care about people like me, but here's a news flash, you don't win presidential elections unless you can sway people like me.
So how do the Tea Party Folks see that happening?
You cannot grow the party by inviting folks to the glory days of yesterday that, honestly, were not so glorious for everyone, and certainly not for the ancestors of people who will soon be a majority in this country.
The party has got to learn how to communicate with people outside of their tribe and the language and attitudes of people like Darth and Red Neck Republican will not get it done.
That's why Noonan and Kristol, and many others are so concerned and voicing it.
"This is the war within the GOP."
ReplyDelete..the term 'circular firing squad'
is starting to crop up.
They can't help themselves. If all you had to pin your hopes on was Romney, you'd feel the same way.
ReplyDeleteDave I'm not sure how it helps Romney's campaign this late in the game though. The only way I could possibly justify Noonan and Kristol and the others would be if after the Mother Jones video came to light and Romney said no big deal...um somebody admits they muffed it you let it go. From a practical angle I'm not getting it Dave.
ReplyDeleteBut I AM glad Mother Jones magazine brought the important issue of gov't dependency to the fore of our nat'l political discussion and for this they deserve credit and massive kudos.
ReplyDeleteYeah, those damn disabled vets, those old people, those folks who make minimum wage.... leeches, every last one of them.
ReplyDeleteYeah and we needed Bill Kristol and David Brooks to point this out, who knew?
ReplyDeleteNever mind sucking off the government, when it comes to veterans we should be personally delivering the cow itself. It is not possible to do too much for any vet, and it's a sin of sins that so many of them are homeless, and a travesty that people would even think to call them leeches, freeloaders, etc.
ReplyDeleteSo you like off-the-cuff?
ReplyDeleteThere's a record number of people in this country living on food stamps though and the real unemployment rate is more like 11.2% when you factor in those who have stopped looking for work altogether. Bill Clinton says Obama can't rely on the youth vote this time around as many of them are hurting. I for one took Clinton's speech at the DNC with a heavy grain of salt, he had to say those things but at other times he goes against Obama. Look for more Clintonisms in the days and weeks ahead.
ReplyDeleteGot the feeling there is a significant number of digruntled
ReplyDeleteRonPaulians: will they flock to
the libertarian candidate Gary Johnson? ...who?...
The price of purity.
ReplyDeleteI think the Libertarians are all going to migrate to some unpopulated part of the Pacific Northwest and form some kind of voluntaryist commune or something.
ReplyDeleteOf course, they aren't willing to help each other, pretty much, so I figure once their population gets past 50 or so they'll collapse under their own weight.
I wonder how many of them are actually preppers you know for when the World Economy like totally collapses. Yeah the thing about Rand is sure those 50 can decide to help each other out but there's really no moral and social obligation to but soapster acts like it'll all work out in the end anyway. Did the bees sting him or something, where is he?
ReplyDelete"...Libertarians are all going to migrate to some unpopulated part of the Pacific Northwest.."
ReplyDeleteHoly Crap! We've had the neo-nazis, survivalists, pot plantation mountain men and an
Indian Swami who bought part of the
Oregon desert and sealed off the
state highways with machine gun
toting guys in robes.
...but Libertarians? Holy Crap!
Lately he's going on and on about Human Action. (with caps just like that.) He ain't been right since he got this new girlfriend.
ReplyDeleteand Z, oh yeah they're all into the survivalist thing.
ReplyDeleteAnd bonafide tinfoil hat conspiracy-ists, lately. As in the Colorado shooter guy was a government plant to upset UN talks, or some affiliated nonsense.
He just ain't been right. And the whole thing with RP not getting the nomination, I think it sent them collectively (omg, is that a pun, in a way?) over the edge.
As you know I like a good conspiracy theory, I'm open-minded about them but they gotta make some sense on at least some level. The Moon Landing was a hoax, well there'd have to be too many people in on this one to make it feasible. The thing about conspiracy theorists is they seem to believe any and all conspiracy theories rather than just one or two. Sure in any situation you can find things that don't add up but there's a difference between not adding up and really not adding up. So we lost him huh?
ReplyDeleteDid we ever really have him?
ReplyDeleteWould y'all mind calling these things conspiracy 'hypotheses'?
ReplyDeleteA hypothesis can be disproven, but not proven to be true. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it.
..dunno, even hypothesis seems a
bit rigorous..gotta go feed the
sasquatch now. :)
I'm very picky in my conspiracy theories, I'm not the kinda guy who when someone says the Colorado shooter was a gov't agent I go that sounds about right. As I say I'm very selective and probably believe in a couple only. I think there's alot of stuff to back up the grassy knoll and the various composite sketches of Son of Sam when he was still on the loose were so different and contradictory from each other you still scratch your head after all these years but that's 'cause brighter minds than mine have delved into these areas. Lately though conspiracy theorizing is pretty bad, used to be a proud product:)
ReplyDeleteI have a couple that I feel very strongly about but they're not things I bring out in public generally.
ReplyDeleteAIDS being a government-invented disease probably originally being a form of chemical warfare, that makes sense as a conspiracy theory if you start with the premise why should there be a new disease out of the blue like that? I mean our hands are full with all the old diseases. I get the sense Mr. BB is against all conspiracy theories as a rule and there's a strong bias among some against conspiracy theorizing in general and the gist seems to be to engage in them points to some mental defect. All the JFK anti-conspiracy theory books that come out to counter all the pro-conspiracy theory ones, there must be a reason for that else why spend so much time writing them? That to me means something's out there, too close to the nerve and when you're too close to the truth it's all-out ad-hominem. O'Reilly just wrote a new book on the subject btw. I think he's overwriting right now.
ReplyDeleteConspiracy theories are interesting
ReplyDeletein that they inform about the thinking process. My approach has always been to examine the data, then list by percent odds. ..the
old 'take yourself out of the situation, remove bias and analyse'. (30 years working with
every known initiating explosive and inventing a few gives one good
pondering habits)
But, the CT business is quite fascinating .
Like I said.. I got a couple that I keep near and dear (and that I passionately believe), but they're not really something I bring out at the supper table. Some people can't handle that sort of thing.
ReplyDeleteBut BB I too believe in impassionately analyzing all the data but sometimes, just sometimes a conspiracy theory makes the most sense. Not all the time, maybe not even a majority of the time but if conspiracy-theorizing is never a part of your thinking process than perhaps you're missing something. I too like Saty believe in a couple more but can't exactly bring them to the table. I've turned them over a thousands times when the Christian Bros. has worn off in the morning just to be sure and they still make sense on some level.
ReplyDeleteIs it me, or has Romney shifted right to the center?
ReplyDeleteHe has the center down pat BB. When he said there's still a role for gov't to play in health care and he told interviewers he'd keep certain parts of ObamaCare while repealing the rest I mean he's right there in the bullseye, he nailed it. Won't frighten people whereas Obama almost totally plays to his Left these days. Romney probably has the better advisers.
ReplyDeleteRomney would say the sky was plaid and that the sun revolved around the earth if he thought it would get him a vote.
ReplyDeleteThe man changes his mind more than I change hairstyles and that is saying a lot.
He gives plenty of vague bullshit that can be taken ten ways but never, ever reveals an actual detail.
I don't trust him far as I can throw him.
"Romney probably has the better advisers." Karl Rove, John Bolton, Ralph Reed....and that
ReplyDeleteAyn Rand guy, Paul Ryan?
Won't frighten people, hmmmm...
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he's reversed his stance so many times on so many issues should be frightening. The idea that a man has no convictions, that he can take something, say he supports it and two days later say he doesn't, should raise people's attention. The idea that he can say he doesn't care about 47% of the population and then a week later say he cares about 100% of the population should make people notice. They should be very afraid indeed, of a man who refuses to lay out his plan in any detail, who refuses to give a single specific that he doesn't change to its polar opposite in a matter of hours or days, who apparently thinks no one is listening to him to such an extent that he can say whatever the group who's in front of him wants to hear and not mind that it's directly opposed to what he said the day or week before, to another group.
Doesn't that frighten you? A man with no stance that can be trusted? Think about it. One of the things I always admired about Chris was that he stood by his Libertarian thing. (I continue to believe it's an abstract theory that can't work in practice, but that's not the point.) At least you know where he stands on something. At least you can trust that from Wednesday to Wednesday week he's going to believe and do and act according to the same principles.
Romney isn't doing that. The man has changed his position so many times on the same issue that it has become impossible to determine where or for what he stands.
Doesn't that frighten you? It should.
But Obama frightens me more. I don't think though anyone can accuse Romney of being stupid. You're funny though Saty, if Romney started talking more rightward again you'd take him to task for that. Conventional wisdom says be a moderate to win elections and I think he's trying to sound moderate but I guess when he does it he has no convictions. Everyone who seriously wants to win an election needs to sound moderate at some point in time which is how Obama got elected in the first place. Now that's scary.
ReplyDeleteIf Romney took ONE STAND and stuck to it I'd at least have to give him that. Rightward, leftward, the man talks in circles.. why doesn't that frighten you? He doesn't sound moderate.. he sounds like whatever the people in front of him at that given moment want him to sound like. Then when someone not of the chosen office (ie, 47% tape) hears wind of it, then he has to backtrack and change his story to something that won't piss off so many people. Do you realize that video and audio recordings aren't being allowed at a lot of Romney functions now? Why might that be? Afraid someone will hear something that's not meant for them?
ReplyDeleteSeriously... how can you defend this? The man changes his stand on positions more than I change my hairstyle.
You've never heard the old political adage that during primary season play to your base but move to the center for the general election? You act like Romney is some sort of an anomaly or aberration but taking your points above we should be afraid of most politicians. I'll give you that.
ReplyDeleteObama did it himself. Before he won the presidency he was still evolving on gay marriage. Was the timing coincidental here? Now all of a sudden his evolution is complete with a sudden epiphany, a kind of divine revelation on the subject. WHY did he take so long to evolve and why aren't gays offended by this???
ReplyDeleteStill trying to get a wrap on how
ReplyDeletecutting all taxes by 20% will eliminate the debt. Those guys could sell freeers to eskimos...
Nobody has said Romney is the ideal candidate but Obamannomics has skyrocketed the debt. I don't think harping on and hating the rich is gonna eliminate it either.
ReplyDeleteStill calculating...lessee, 20% tax cuts for everyone, eliminate
ReplyDeletebanking regulations, increase defense spending..and use that to pay down the debt. Z-Man, ya
wanna buy some stock in the Mackinac Bridge? BTW, history
will show some day that the tax cuts starting 40 years back led to the debt....