Soapie has a problem with Big Government or maybe it's just government. BB has a problem with Big Business. I have a problem with Both. Where to begin?
Is it a problem with Big Biz or a problem with capitalism? My guess is that if you looked it over you'd find it's actually a problem with capitalism, because like I've said.. capitalism enriches the few at the expense of the many, and that's the whole problem with Big Biz, isn't it?
Here's a question I posed somewhere in my blog once, could you be a Mystery Shopper? More and more retail businesses are doing this paying someone to pose as a shopper and see how the staff does. Personally it's against my moral code getting other people in trouble but some take the opposite view and say there are practical reasons for it. In extreme cases a mystery shopper can lead to someone being dismissed and dunno but maybe there are lawyers who can make something out of this.
I wouldn't call it getting other people in trouble. It's a way to see if people are doing their jobs, period. It also opens the door for people who ARE doing a good/great job to get some recognition for it. I mean, why are you like emphasizing the negative aspects? The positive aspects are equally there.
Some places post everyone's mystery shop scores so all the workers see who did what. Creates a kind of hostile work environment so depends on the company and how they use it.
You DO understand that the theory is what ultimately causes the people's behavior, right? Because capitalism doesn't work unless people are willing to work it, which means exploiting others for one's own benefit. So either the people were previously prone to the exploitation of others (which would probably predispose them towards capitalism) or the system which requires exploitation of others incited behavior in them that they otherwise wouldn't necessarily have participated in. Of course, the fact that they were willing to do so doesn't say much for their character.
Sheldon Cooper- "Penny: I always tear up when the Grinch's heart grows three sizes. Sheldon: Tears seem appropriate. Enlargement of the heart muscle, or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, is a serious disease which can lead to congestive heart failure."
I live in the freakin woods. I have no options because everything is forty miles plus from me.
That aside, why is shopping on Amazon a capitalistic thing to do? I have to shop. Shopping doesn't make me a capitalist, it makes me a human being that needs shit.
So buy your Blackberry in some socialist market country, show your support. You know the old criticism you throw at soapie all the time comes to mind and the thing of it is you're living every day under a capitalist system (well part-capitalist anyway). It's like the water you drink and the air you breathe, you're behaving in capitalistic ways without even thinking about it every single day. You're a system-hater, ok but a phrase you like to use alot when the rubber meets the road if it bothers you that much Sweden is a lovely country to live.
You see here's the big paradox you're missing all the time. You feel many of the people who make up our capitalistic system are morally flawed and I'll partially give you that. However you take those same morally flawed people and put them in government and why would they be any better off controlling the means of production? If human nature is inherently corrupt they'll be corrupt under capitalism or a government-run system.
I can not by definition be a capitalist since I don't own the means of production.
'Behaving in capitalistic ways'? wtf does that mean? Buying a tomato makes me a capitalist?
I feel that capitalism AS A SYSTEM is morally flawed. Period. The people, the capitalists themselves, are either also morally flawed going in or they become so by their adoption of a system. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Certainly by no reach of any fancy whatsoever am I a capitalist, nor does having to buy groceries and necessities of life make me one. Read Das Kapital.
No thank you, I'll pass on the Marx. Buying tomatoes in a capitalistic system well you sure are behaving in a capitalistic way, cell phones too because you're increasing the profits of all those free-market businesses and all these businesses are all part of the Complex, the free market network you label corrupt and hate so much. Yeah so what I'm also saying is that human nature is morally flawed, corrupt even so makes no difference if you put same human beings in charge of a capitalistic system or a socialist system. Maybe you seem to be saying human beings are only bad under a capitalistic system and they suddenly become virtuous at running a socialist market system and what I'm saying is if people are bad they'll be bad at running the government and a government controlled economy also. Dig?
"From the very first we run into grave problems with the term "capitalism." When we realize that the word was coined by capitalism's most famous enemy, Karl Marx, it is not surprising that a neutral or a pro-"capitalist" analyst might find the term lacking in precision. For capitalism tends to be a catchall, a portmanteau concept that Marxists apply to virtually every society on the face of the globe, with the exception of a few possible "feudalist" countries and the Communist nations (although, of course, the Chinese consider Yugoslavia and Russia "capitalist," while many Trotskyites would include China as well). Marxists, for example, consider India as a "capitalist" country, but India, hagridden by a vast and monstrous network of restrictions, castes, state regulations, and monopoly privileges is about as far from free-market capitalism as can be imagined."
Continued...
"If we are to keep the term "capitalism" at all, then, we must distinguish between "free-market capitalism" on the one hand, and "state capitalism" on the other. The two are as different as day and night in their nature and consequences. Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at. State capitalism consists of one or more groups making use of the coercive apparatus of the government — the State — to accumulate capital for themselves by expropriating the production of others by force and violence."
The procurement of capital in America today is largely made possible through incorporation (a state apparatus). Businesses and corportions are shielded in many respects and are afforded special privileges.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna download a couple of things to my tablet. Tonight I'll probably be checking in with my very capitalistic smartphone with the opera mini app and funny but smartphones are getting better and better all the time. Maybe it's all that free market competition that makes them better, dunno.
How about a quote from a free market theorist? "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history." Ludvig von Mises - 'Liberalism' 1927 How about a quote from another free market theorist on the responsibility of government when the free market marginalizes some people? "There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all, protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income, or a floor below which nobody need descend. To enter into such an insurance against extreme misfortune may well be in the interest of all; or it may be felt to be a clear moral duty of all to assist, within the organised community, those who cannot help themselves. So long as such a uniform minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction of freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law." These were economists that recognized that free market capitalism had great possibilities and a few defects which needed government help, IMO.
Neglected to source my second quote above: Friedrich Hayek, 'Law, Legislation and Liberty' -1973 So, from a pragmatic viewpoint, we may posit that while the free market enables many positive attributes, the few disadvantages need be addressed by society in general and/or gov't in particular.
"But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."
https://mises.org/liberal/ch1sec10.asp
As for Hayek, there are definitely variances amongst the Austrians and unfortunately for Hayek there is no excuse. Tis why I don't share his perspective in that specific regard.
I find Hans-Hermann Hoppe's perspective to be much more to my liking.
I only quoted a snippet of Mises; he was quite prolific and most of the time pretty dry. I agree, as the Nazi programs grew, he (along with some naïve Americans like Lindbergh and Henry Ford) quickly changed his mind. But 'The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history.' seems a bit of a stretch, unless we replace 'merit' with 60 million deaths. As for Hayek, most economists recognize the societal relation in economics and even Adam Smith predicted progressive taxation.
Z-man, you are paraphrasing the Urban Dictionary definition of 'objectivism'- " Selfishness excusing itself as virtue. First propounded by cultic pop-philosopher Ayn Rand, objectivism prizes narcissistic (or "rugged") individualism, self-centered achievement, commerce, industry, and tall buildings as being of prime value over love, faithfulness, generosity, and humility. Adherents of the Ayn Rand cult, called objectivists, or randroids at the extreme, tend towards patronizing rudeness, and a near-dogmatic infatuation with their pet theories on race and the superiority of western civilization and culture."
Libertarian philosophy is centered decentralization. It is antithetical to a national concept. Of course you'd know this if you ever took the time to actually study it.
Regardless, libertarianism theory is practiced each and every single day in every corner of the world.
Most private security personel I've run across are not up to police standards. ..and I'd be uncomfortable calling General Electric for a cop..or even Cops-R-Us.
I get a kick out of people like you who make quips about libertarianism/anarchism and dystopia or libertarianism/anarchism not being a utopia etc.
It is laughable really and quite ironic because what is actually happening en masse is this ridiculous illusion that somehow putting government in charge of anything and everything is somehow going to improve the imperfections in society and bring about a utopian society.
Libertarians/Anarchists that I know will never/have never made a claim that such systems bring about utopia. We merely find them to not only be moral systems but because we know full well and understand full well the imperfections of individuals in society, it is for this very reason that we abhor the idea of creating a special class of citizenry to rule over the masses. Der...
Zuckerberg is working on a scheme to get the entire world population of some 7 billion folks "linked in". Wanna bet it doesn't involve landlines or snailmail?
Of course they target things. Citibank blackflagged my account because I was making purchases from Kuwait. Do you think they didn't share that bit of information with anyone else? I've been associated with one or another Socialist organization since 1984. Do you think there's not a dossier on me somewhere in some underground safe-storage facility? Of course there is. To think otherwise is to be almost dangerously naïve.
Agreed; that hermit mountain man frying up an elk steak deep in the Medicine Bow mountains didn't realize that Cheyennes were peeking over the ridge to the north and Arapahoes were watching from the south....original NSA!
I think Saty's right though, not that we're bona fide threats to the gov't or terrorists or anything but there's gotta be at least one file on us in some underground safe-storage center somewhere probably out in some forlorn part of some Western state. Even if nobody ever reads it and it gathers dust IT'S THERE. I'm convinced of this.
I'd be kinda sad if there wasn't. I did plenty of activising and protesting and making myself heard in the day and it would hurt my feelings to think no one noticed.
If you do a search on a particular product that you're thinking about buying, you will notice that for weeks afterwards various advertisements for that type of product will come up on pages you visit. "Targeted advertising". Is dependent on spying on what you're searching for. Either you come to peace with this sort of stuff or you go join the militia people out there by BB in Idaho.
Also whenever you use your discount card at the supermarket insurance companies can look at that and see what you're eating, whether you're living a healthy lifestyle etc. It's not just to save money although it's framed that way.
The problem is both. When the two collide, as they havem it is fascism.
ReplyDeleteThe NSA and telecommunication cos. being a good place to begin.
DeletePower companies, food companies....the list goes on....
DeleteAm I the only person in the world who never bought anything on
ReplyDeleteAmazon?
Curious, why would Jeff Bezos be interested in running a newspaper?
ReplyDeleteI buy everydamnthing on Amazon.
ReplyDeleteBezos interest? Good question. Perhaps he is going to sell WAPO
ReplyDeletesubscriptions at Amazon?
Is it a problem with Big Biz or a problem with capitalism? My guess is that if you looked it over you'd find it's actually a problem with capitalism, because like I've said.. capitalism enriches the few at the expense of the many, and that's the whole problem with Big Biz, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteHere's a question I posed somewhere in my blog once, could you be a Mystery Shopper? More and more retail businesses are doing this paying someone to pose as a shopper and see how the staff does. Personally it's against my moral code getting other people in trouble but some take the opposite view and say there are practical reasons for it. In extreme cases a mystery shopper can lead to someone being dismissed and dunno but maybe there are lawyers who can make something out of this.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call it getting other people in trouble. It's a way to see if people are doing their jobs, period. It also opens the door for people who ARE doing a good/great job to get some recognition for it. I mean, why are you like emphasizing the negative aspects? The positive aspects are equally there.
ReplyDeleteWhat if someone close to you just passed and you don't smile at the customer or maybe you're just not feeling well and so it goes down in the report.
DeleteI think you have an excessively punitive view of the whole thing. Be positive.
DeleteSome places post everyone's mystery shop scores so all the workers see who did what. Creates a kind of hostile work environment so depends on the company and how they use it.
DeleteSo have you come to the realization that your problem with Big Biz is that it's capitalism at work?
ReplyDeleteNO the theory is fine it's the moral character of some of the people involved.
DeleteYou DO understand that the theory is what ultimately causes the people's behavior, right? Because capitalism doesn't work unless people are willing to work it, which means exploiting others for one's own benefit. So either the people were previously prone to the exploitation of others (which would probably predispose them towards capitalism) or the system which requires exploitation of others incited behavior in them that they otherwise wouldn't necessarily have participated in. Of course, the fact that they were willing to do so doesn't say much for their character.
ReplyDeleteGod, I sound like Sheldon Cooper.
The point remains.
Sheldon Cooper-
ReplyDelete"Penny: I always tear up when the Grinch's heart grows three sizes.
Sheldon: Tears seem appropriate. Enlargement of the heart muscle, or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, is a serious disease which can lead to congestive heart failure."
That you can decide between the Blackberry Z10 or Q10 and use it to blast capitalism that's capitalism. In what other system...
ReplyDeletePeople who live in market socialist countries don't have cellphones?
ReplyDeleteYou say you practically do all of your shopping on Amazon, what a remarkably capitalistic thing to do!
DeleteI live in the freakin woods. I have no options because everything is forty miles plus from me.
ReplyDeleteThat aside, why is shopping on Amazon a capitalistic thing to do? I have to shop. Shopping doesn't make me a capitalist, it makes me a human being that needs shit.
Look up the definition of capitalist; one who owns the means of production.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of us are the proletariat, who are exploited to produce profits for the capitalists.
So buy your Blackberry in some socialist market country, show your support. You know the old criticism you throw at soapie all the time comes to mind and the thing of it is you're living every day under a capitalist system (well part-capitalist anyway). It's like the water you drink and the air you breathe, you're behaving in capitalistic ways without even thinking about it every single day. You're a system-hater, ok but a phrase you like to use alot when the rubber meets the road if it bothers you that much Sweden is a lovely country to live.
DeleteYou see here's the big paradox you're missing all the time. You feel many of the people who make up our capitalistic system are morally flawed and I'll partially give you that. However you take those same morally flawed people and put them in government and why would they be any better off controlling the means of production? If human nature is inherently corrupt they'll be corrupt under capitalism or a government-run system.
ReplyDeleteI can not by definition be a capitalist since I don't own the means of production.
ReplyDelete'Behaving in capitalistic ways'? wtf does that mean? Buying a tomato makes me a capitalist?
I feel that capitalism AS A SYSTEM is morally flawed. Period. The people, the capitalists themselves, are either also morally flawed going in or they become so by their adoption of a system. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Certainly by no reach of any fancy whatsoever am I a capitalist, nor does having to buy groceries and necessities of life make me one. Read Das Kapital.
No thank you, I'll pass on the Marx. Buying tomatoes in a capitalistic system well you sure are behaving in a capitalistic way, cell phones too because you're increasing the profits of all those free-market businesses and all these businesses are all part of the Complex, the free market network you label corrupt and hate so much. Yeah so what I'm also saying is that human nature is morally flawed, corrupt even so makes no difference if you put same human beings in charge of a capitalistic system or a socialist system. Maybe you seem to be saying human beings are only bad under a capitalistic system and they suddenly become virtuous at running a socialist market system and what I'm saying is if people are bad they'll be bad at running the government and a government controlled economy also. Dig?
DeleteCapitalism and Free-Markets are not the same thing.
DeleteOh here we go again with the arcane esoteric erudition. Pardon my ignorance, instruct me dear sir.
DeleteA quote from Rothbard
Delete"From the very first we run into grave problems with the term "capitalism." When we realize that the word was coined by capitalism's most famous enemy, Karl Marx, it is not surprising that a neutral or a pro-"capitalist" analyst might find the term lacking in precision. For capitalism tends to be a catchall, a portmanteau concept that Marxists apply to virtually every society on the face of the globe, with the exception of a few possible "feudalist" countries and the Communist nations (although, of course, the Chinese consider Yugoslavia and Russia "capitalist," while many Trotskyites would include China as well). Marxists, for example, consider India as a "capitalist" country, but India, hagridden by a vast and monstrous network of restrictions, castes, state regulations, and monopoly privileges is about as far from free-market capitalism as can be imagined."
Continued...
"If we are to keep the term "capitalism" at all, then, we must distinguish between "free-market capitalism" on the one hand, and "state capitalism" on the other. The two are as different as day and night in their nature and consequences. Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at. State capitalism consists of one or more groups making use of the coercive apparatus of the government — the State — to accumulate capital for themselves by expropriating the production of others by force and violence."
The procurement of capital in America today is largely made possible through incorporation (a state apparatus). Businesses and corportions are shielded in many respects and are afforded special privileges.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna download a couple of things to my tablet. Tonight I'll probably be checking in with my very capitalistic smartphone with the opera mini app and funny but smartphones are getting better and better all the time. Maybe it's all that free market competition that makes them better, dunno.
ReplyDeleteGoogle admits it collects data on its customers, just like NSA.
ReplyDeleteOf course in our free market, Google SELLS it (and provides it to
NSA no charge)
How about a quote from a free market theorist?
ReplyDelete"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history." Ludvig von Mises -
'Liberalism' 1927
How about a quote from another free market theorist on the responsibility of government when the free market marginalizes
some people?
"There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all, protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income, or a floor below which nobody need descend. To enter into such an insurance against extreme misfortune may well be in the interest of all; or it may be felt to be a clear moral duty of all to assist, within the organised community, those who cannot help themselves. So long as such a uniform minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction of freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law."
These were economists that recognized that free market capitalism
had great possibilities and a few defects which needed government
help, IMO.
Neglected to source my second quote above:
ReplyDeleteFriedrich Hayek, 'Law, Legislation and Liberty'
-1973
So, from a pragmatic viewpoint, we may posit that while the free market enables many positive
attributes, the few disadvantages need be addressed by society in general and/or gov't in
particular.
There's a great difference between min. wage laws and proposed living wage legislation.
ReplyDeleteHey BB, why'd you stop short on Mises?
ReplyDeleteThe next sentence:
"But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."
https://mises.org/liberal/ch1sec10.asp
As for Hayek, there are definitely variances amongst the Austrians and unfortunately for Hayek there is no excuse. Tis why I don't share his perspective in that specific regard.
I find Hans-Hermann Hoppe's perspective to be much more to my liking.
https://mises.org/daily/5747/
And for viewing pleasure:
http://propertyandfreedom.org/2012/11/hans-hermann-hoppe-the-hayek-myth-pfs-2012/
If BB stopped short on the Mises quote on purpose he's well qualified to report for the Ole Gray Lady.
ReplyDeleteI only quoted a snippet of Mises; he was quite prolific and most of the time pretty dry. I agree, as the Nazi programs grew, he
ReplyDelete(along with some naïve Americans like Lindbergh and Henry Ford)
quickly changed his mind. But 'The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history.' seems a bit of
a stretch, unless we replace 'merit' with 60 million deaths. As for
Hayek, most economists recognize the societal relation in economics and even Adam Smith predicted progressive taxation.
Then there's Randian Economics which doesn't even recognize societal relations in economics, it's just all about ME.
DeleteZ-man, you are paraphrasing the Urban Dictionary definition of
ReplyDelete'objectivism'-
" Selfishness excusing itself as virtue. First propounded by cultic pop-philosopher Ayn Rand, objectivism prizes narcissistic (or "rugged") individualism, self-centered achievement, commerce, industry, and tall buildings as being of prime value over love, faithfulness, generosity, and humility. Adherents of the Ayn Rand cult, called objectivists, or randroids at the extreme, tend towards patronizing rudeness, and a near-dogmatic infatuation with their pet theories on race and the superiority of western civilization and culture."
& no moral obligations to the larger society as a whole, in fact in Atlas to hold people to this is the epitome of evil.
DeleteWhich is why there is no 'libertarian' nation.
ReplyDeleteIt's a fiction.
Reading soapie's latest comments I'm not so sure he even believes in a police force.
ReplyDeleteLibertarian philosophy is centered decentralization. It is antithetical to a national concept. Of course you'd know this if you ever took the time to actually study it.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, libertarianism theory is practiced each and every single day in every corner of the world.
A private police/security force sure.
ReplyDelete& we all know how successful the privace Hasidic police/security forces are in NYC.
DeleteMost private security personel I've run across are not up to police standards. ..and I'd be uncomfortable calling General Electric for a cop..or even Cops-R-Us.
ReplyDeleteSoap's libertarian utopia is actually a dystopia.
ReplyDeleteYou must be confusing it with the current state of affairs.
DeleteI get a kick out of people like you who make quips about libertarianism/anarchism and dystopia or libertarianism/anarchism not being a utopia etc.
DeleteIt is laughable really and quite ironic because what is actually happening en masse is this ridiculous illusion that somehow putting government in charge of anything and everything is somehow going to improve the imperfections in society and bring about a utopian society.
Libertarians/Anarchists that I know will never/have never made a claim that such systems bring about utopia. We merely find them to not only be moral systems but because we know full well and understand full well the imperfections of individuals in society, it is for this very reason that we abhor the idea of creating a special class of citizenry to rule over the masses. Der...
No way would a private police force ever become racial.
ReplyDelete"Commerce and entrepreneurial capitalism take more people out of poverty than aid." Bono on Africa
ReplyDeleteCan't argue with Bono.
ReplyDeleteI remember when Pope John Paul II took his glasses. I can't imagine Benedict doing this, Francis yes.
ReplyDeleteZuckerberg is working on a scheme to get the entire world population of some 7 billion folks "linked in". Wanna bet it doesn't involve landlines or snailmail?
ReplyDeleteGreat, now you can argue with your mother-in-law on Facebook.
DeleteWell, there is probably some kid in Katmandu, or and old lady in
ReplyDeleteMongolia that wants to know about the Yonkers Red Light Camera
problem.
It's funny you should say that. I was researching my sitemeter the other day and have been getting hits in Nairobi.
ReplyDeleteJust curious; do the hits from NSA show up with that meter?
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, never thought about that. Probably a substation.
ReplyDeleteOne would suppose that the security electro-tap software keys on
ReplyDeletecertain words and phrases. You know, El Kabong
and the like?
Of course they target things. Citibank blackflagged my account because I was making purchases from Kuwait. Do you think they didn't share that bit of information with anyone else? I've been associated with one or another Socialist organization since 1984. Do you think there's not a dossier on me somewhere in some underground safe-storage facility? Of course there is. To think otherwise is to be almost dangerously naïve.
ReplyDeleteHmm, I discussed some rocket propulsion equations with a fellow in
ReplyDeletethe USSR over the I-net....
Privacy is a myth, always has been. People cherish something they've never really had, a kind of mythical right.
ReplyDeleteAgreed; that hermit mountain man frying up an elk steak deep in
ReplyDeletethe Medicine Bow mountains didn't realize that Cheyennes were peeking over the ridge to the north and Arapahoes were watching from the south....original NSA!
I think Saty's right though, not that we're bona fide threats to the gov't or terrorists or anything but there's gotta be at least one file on us in some underground safe-storage center somewhere probably out in some forlorn part of some Western state. Even if nobody ever reads it and it gathers dust IT'S THERE. I'm convinced of this.
ReplyDeleteI'd be kinda sad if there wasn't. I did plenty of activising and protesting and making myself heard in the day and it would hurt my feelings to think no one noticed.
ReplyDeleteYou can't have constant advancements in technology and expanding privacy at the same time. In fact it works quite the opposite.
ReplyDeleteIf you do a search on a particular product that you're thinking about buying, you will notice that for weeks afterwards various advertisements for that type of product will come up on pages you visit. "Targeted advertising". Is dependent on spying on what you're searching for. Either you come to peace with this sort of stuff or you go join the militia people out there by BB in Idaho.
ReplyDeleteI get daily e-mails from Lands End. Never bought anything there.
ReplyDeleteWhat's up with that?
Also whenever you use your discount card at the supermarket insurance companies can look at that and see what you're eating, whether you're living a healthy lifestyle etc. It's not just to save money although it's framed that way.
ReplyDelete