Saturday, September 14, 2013
The liberal(?) Pope Francis
He gets around town in an older Renault with 190,000 miles on it. Asked on a plane about gay priests and he says "who am I to judge?" Now he says clerical celibacy is not a dogma of the Church and says it can be discussed. Unlike the more foreboding and stern ex-Benedict he's the softie in the Entenmann's box, friendlier and more personal around the edges. I got no problem but if the liberal media starts to like you then there is a problem. I think you have to balance your softness though so as to appear you stand for something, you're not throwing out doctrines and morals. Coolness though cool is not a teaching. My view on priestly celibacy is it may be a blessing in disguise, you never experience having your heart broken but I also think it should be an option. All things considered though I'm getting the faintest whiff, just the wisp of a curl of a liberal pope with more liberal things to say in the near future, dribs and drabs stuff on planes in cars on sidewalks and in interviews. Is he down with Pro-Choice? he might vague the issue. On the Syrian question he's not even discussing the Church's time-honored since Aquinas just-war doctrine he's just tweeting the typical pacifist platitudes. The point's been made the Church needs to eventually move with the times, the Zeitgeist but is the times always worth moving towards? I don't have a firm impression of this pope yet and some feel Jesuits are a problem. I'm trepidatious and hopeful at the same time. As an interesting aside what's in some of those Vatican archives? Keep the theological sleuths busy.
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Tough line to walk: simultaneously 'Servant of the Servants of God' and CEO of an organization with 1.2 billion customers. Expect unusual things from non-Italian popes.
ReplyDeleteAquinas also invented moral relativism:
ReplyDelete"Because of the diverse conditions of humans, it happens that some acts are virtuous to some people, as appropriate and suitable to them, while the same acts are immoral for others, as inappropriate to them." Would have made a good Jesuit.
I get why they want to make JPII a saint but why John XXIII? they've even downgraded the need for two miracles to one in his case.
ReplyDeleteTrepidatious is a MAGNIFICENT word.
ReplyDeleteI'm doing my own thing -- thuganomics:)
ReplyDeleteUsed to be you had to do earn sainthood: "Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, thieves, children, pawnbrokers and students in various cities and countries around Europe." If you have that diverse a bunch of supporters, you are
ReplyDeletesome saint. Even then, there are always naysayers .
Padre Pio the most popular saint of modern times he sometimes let his gifts go to his head occasionally refusing some poor soul's confession. John XXIII the roly-poly pope who presided over Vatican II, we've come a long ways from Maria Goretti and Maximilian Kolbe.
ReplyDeleteWorrying about sainthood isn't the only problem .
ReplyDeleteI never even thought about that but it makes sense if they just let the water sit there which they probably do. I'm sure it's not up there on the list of priorities of the ushers.
ReplyDeleteYou would think H Water would have a shelf-life?
ReplyDeleteI actually know a guy who goes to the supermarket with a magnifying glass and claims the big jugs of Poland Spring have expiration dates. Doesn't have a woman.
ReplyDeleteSome church ushers have suits that make them look like game-show hosts. The only thing missing is the long Gene Rayburn mike.
ReplyDeleteWater that is holy doesn't seem to phase bacteria, who are notoriously unreligious. BTW, I was discussing the recent Navy Yard
ReplyDeletemassacre and got around to folks wanting to carry for self defense.
I told of a guy I worked with in Mpls back in the mid-sixties when
such was, of course, a pipe dream. But a few folks were conservative and fewer yet used guns for self defense. So my fellow worker told me that he kept a loaded 22 under his bed because he lived in a rough area. I asked him how that worked out and he said late one night, a motorcycle gang was making a ruckus
out in the street. He grabbed his weapon and went out and confronted them. "Dang", I said, "How did that come out?" It worked out pretty good, he said, because they took his gun and broke it, laughed so hard and had a good time that they invited him to share a few beers. Odd but true tale #118.
Now in the wake of the Navy Yard massacre there's the usual cry for gun control from Nancy Pelosi et al. In my mind the issues aren't that related in that the guy worked in the Navy, the military and so it's not far-fetched that he'd have firearms at some point in his life. You're in a military state of mind after all. The Adam Lanza thing yeah what was he doing with guns but this guy was in the Navy so for me I don't think pushing through legislation in the wake of this is gonna prevent that type of thing from happening military people going nuts. I don't think what happened has any real traction re gun control is my view.
ReplyDeleteIMO, if the Tea Party Wing of the GOP had even one percent of the
ReplyDeleteinterest in a dozen Navy personel, 22 firstgraders, 12 in Aurora
13 in Tucson (ad infinitum) shot to death by "fellow Americans" as
they have in the 2 Navy Seals, a clerk and ambassador in Benghazi,
perhaps there might have been progress.
If Newtown didn't have traction this sure as hell won't.
DeleteOne wonders how much NRA collateral damage it would take.
ReplyDeleteIf something should have happened it should have happened after Newtown. Even a modest legislative package wasn't passed, shameful. After 9/11 Newtown is the most shocking thing that's ever happened in my lifetime but it didn't shake up the Nat'l Review, it didn't shake up LaPierre, it didn't wake up Hannity. Look I get it they're not for full-bore gun control but this was one of those rare opportunites everybody could've met in the middle and at least accomplish something.
ReplyDeleteIt may be that the NRA staff brainstorms on how to protect folks rights to possess 50 round magazines/assault rifles with no background checks in the event some guy (and he probably will)
ReplyDeletewalks into some little town and mows down the entire population.
What kills me is that you can legislate that people may own ONE handgun and ONE shotgun and make any magazine over 10 rounds illegal... you may legislate how many weapons/ammo may be bought within a timeframe, you may create requirements for background checks, credit checks, underwear checks, blood tests and literacy exams prior to being able to buy a weapon... and you STILL will not have violated the Second Amendment.
ReplyDeleteIt may take a few hundred years, but Darwin's Law of natural selection should take
ReplyDeletecare of the problem.
Difference between 1st and 2nd Amendments - everyone has free speech, you're born with it but not everyone should be carrying a gun.
ReplyDeleteWell it turns out my hunch was right, Francis has said some newer things. My thought is this - the sphere of Politics and the sphere of Faith are two separate things. It is part of the job of a religious leader to say certain things are wrong.
ReplyDelete" If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, he will find nothing."
ReplyDelete"..the Church must find a new balance between upholding rules and demonstrating mercy. "Otherwise even the moral edifice of the Church is likely to fall like a house of cards."
"The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience. To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil."
Wow! If they ever get around to apologizing for luring Jan Hus to
Rome under a safe conduct, then revoking it at burning him at the stake 600 years ago, I may consider the worthy of the name Christian.
The RC Church is a cultlike institution e.g. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League supports him. If tomorrow Francis said we need to reemphasize abortion, bc and homosexuality Donohue would support that. What's the difference between the Pope and L. Ron Hubbard?
ReplyDeleteThe whole Theta alien thing.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think there are conservative Catholics out there who are only against abortion and gay marriage because the popes have been against abortion and gay marriage. Let's say we get a pope who comes out in favor of those things then they'd say they support him. That's part of what I mean by cult a hallmark of which is the lack of independent thought among the members.
DeleteSaw Cardinal Dolan on mainstream media this AM. He thought Francis was 'refreshing'. Theological microscopy aside, IMO Dolan is himself refreshing; what a personality-would make a great politician-maybe starting with NYC mayor?
ReplyDeleteThe first requirement to be 'anyone' of substance in NY is to be a character.
ReplyDeleteWell Fatima did prophesy a bad pope who would lead the faithful astray.
ReplyDeleteJohn Paul II was conservative but very popular at the same time and also stressed the Divine Mercy without watering down morals and doctrines. The Pope cannot deviate from church doctrine and moral teachings, if he does from a theological perspective he becomes de facto a bad pope misleading the faithful. I don't think the current pope sufficiently considers his own words and statements from different angles, in that respect he's like a blogger.
ReplyDeleteThe Pope can override and interpret church doctrine and teachings if/when he makes pronouncements ex cathedra. Now that is a very big deal and it doesn't happen often, it's not that everything that pops out of his mouth carries that kind of weight but he does have that power to make statements that alter and shift the course of the Church forever. In this respect the RC church is totally different than others; the final authority is not the Bible but the Church itself. And in the event of a discrepancy between what the Bible says and what the Church says, the Church takes precedence. And pronouncements ex cathedra by the current pope would also trump any previous pronouncement so he has full authority to overturn/contradict/override any tenet the Church has. As the Vicar of Christ he's pretty much got a blank check.... so yeah, he can deviate if he likes to.
ReplyDeleteI think you're slightly theologically off the mark otherwise we can get endless popes counter ex-cathedra-ing each other and the Church's teachings would be whimsical and unstable at best.
DeleteTrue, many believe he is de facto infallible.
ReplyDeleteFrancis by his words seems to be putting down his predecessors instead of building on them.
ReplyDeleteUmmmmmm.... the Church's teachings have been whimsical and unstable(albeit over a long timescale) and the ex cathedra have done quite a bit to rock the theological world.
ReplyDeleteVatican II?
No need to fast on Fridays anymore?
Salvation outside the church?
There have been enough whimsical instabilities to cause serious sectarianism, see Mel Gibson.
The Dormition of Mary as the Orthodox Catholics put it - did she die first or was she just assumed into Heaven? no ex cathedra statements yet.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I hear Francis is already rifting the American Catholic Church disaffecting the more conservative members. You don't need Mel Gibson for that.
ReplyDeleteCan't impeach a pope: but back in the day during the "Western Schism", two alienated groups of catholics followed two different popes. So, perhaps Francis in the N part of the Vatican, and a
ReplyDeleteBenedict brought out of retirement in the S part?
A corporate analogy came to me. There's been alot of problems in the Church the past few years and like a company that's recently filed for bankruptcy and is just trying to go forward this Pope for all his talk about disliking bureaucratic clery is trying out a new-fangled corporate approach, changing the brand to appeal to as broad a swath as possible. However just like in the business world many of these new strategies don't work or don't catch on. He doesn't seem to want to go slow either. Why not just say we're gonna take another look at birth control? why even bring up abortion and say something to alienate pro-life Catholics? It's like he wants to put everything on the table for discussion whereas a wiser course of action imo would be simply to stick to bc and clerical celibacy for example and call it a day. Let the next Pope bring up some other stuff if he wants but I think his retooling the brand is gonna fail.
ReplyDeleteThe RC has their own PC. Such as-
ReplyDelete"'Any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.'
-Pius XI
..probably based on the Bible, which does not address birth control.
& yet the Rev. Pat Robertson is totally down with bc. You're probably limited to one climax as well.
DeleteThe RC church don't sweat the Bible,
ReplyDeleteWell Francis early on consecrated his pontificate to Our Lady of Fatima so maybe this is a teachable moment. He almost doesn't like Rome.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm reading some of the Catholic and conservative commentary last night re the Pope's words and it's all glowing with positive misinterpretations (George Weigel). They say it was good to shock us and others seem to say it allows us to talk about gays and abortion even more. Huh?
ReplyDeleteWe are in an era of instant gratification, instant solutions,
ReplyDeleteinstant cures, etc. IMO, we should let things play out a bit.
IMO maybe there's something not right not so much with the Pope but with the flexible Catholic conservative reaction to his words.
ReplyDeleteEvery religion has moral values and principles they emphasize if not for the larger society than for its members, followers and the organized structure tries to inculcate those values and principles at least for those who hold to that faith. Francis' formulation is an unusual one and Dolan for example instead of coming out all euphoric just 'cause Francis is the Boss could've simply gave a public statement to the effect that this is a bit confounding, we have to study his words and ponder them. A positive misinterpretation is something that you should normally be upset over but you find positive rationales for something that was said or done aka wishful thinking. Francis himself was probably as surprised by the initial positive conservative Catholic reaction to his words. If our faith was being tested many of us didn't do too good.
ReplyDeleteRegarding conservative/liberal view within the RC, I ran across an interesting idea on a blog elsewhere this AM. He posits that for every idea,
Deletethere is a counter idea. His example was science vs fundamentalists, where science has the data, but the fundies are convinced they are right.
In your case, the data might be the traditional teachings, the opposite idea
being progressive, but tentative theology. RC doesn't change fast, in fact
back in the day folks that recommended mass in the common language were burned at the stake (which certainly slows down change). As an interested outsider, I understand the teaching on abortion, but find the birth control thing pretty shaky, as do a high number of catholics if I read the
data correctly. But an old traditional religion is not about to try to jump out
in front of popular opinion. ..and you end up with sedavacantists and
conclavists pouting and opus dei lurking around doing their thing.
Dunno, it is a huge religion, should have room for lots of folks with lots of
ideas.
The only way to run a huge religion is to be entirely authoritarian and beaurocratic. There is no room for independence of thought in a place like that.
DeleteLike Islam - see al-Shabab.
DeleteHowever it came to be Pro-Life is at the core of the Church so Francis is kinda trotting over the Third Rail. Dolan's "fresh air" comments, does he mean to say his own institution has been a musty attic up until this point? I'd ask Dolan exactly what do you mean?
ReplyDeleteWell, the warm bosom of Mother Church is still around. From Crooks & Liars:
ReplyDelete"Nor has Pope Francis shown much tolerance for anyone in the Church expressing the unorthodox views supporting women priests and gays, as dissident priest Greg Reynolds in Melbourne, Australia recently discovered. While child molesting priests are, occasionally if it becomes too big a scandal to hide, defrocked, Father Reynolds was not only laicised, but actually excommunicated – on direct orders from the Vatican, not at the request of his archbishop. Father Reynolds's heinous transgression is that he’s the founder of Inclusive Catholics, which promotes a more merciful and welcoming church rather than focusing on divisive issues as abortion, gay marriage and contraception... wait, who said that’s what Catholic priests should be doing? Oh, yeah. That would be Pope Francis. Riiiiiight."
"It’s extremely rare, but Father Reynolds isn’t the first Australian Catholic to be excommunicated, and for all the wrong reasons; Sister Mary MacKillop was excommunicated by her local bishop in 1871 after she blew the whistle on a priest in Adelaide who had been sexually molesting children. The paedophile cleric was speedily packed off to another parish in Ireland – where he continued on as a priest – while his friends plotted revenge against MacKillop, managing to get her excommunicated and tossed out on the street penniless. She was later canonized in 2010 as a Catholic saint. Go figure."
He said something in poverty-stricken Sardinia, Italy about the corporate god of Mammon. I don't think he's abandoned the teachings on the social issues but he'd also like to devote his papacy to social justice.
ReplyDeleteThat is my take on it as well. Accentuate the positives the Church offers.
ReplyDeleteAgain for me it's not so much the Pope as the conservative Catholic reaction to his words. Take Dolan again. Now part of Francis' words dealt with the Church does not have to talk about abortion, contraception and gays all the time. Hasn't Dolan been talking ALOT about contraception lately? as head of the USCB he's been spearheading the Catholic Church's opposition to ObamaCare's contraceptive mandate. You remember this, seems like yesterday in fact. Maybe that's because it was yesterday. So if anything you'd expect Dolan to be a little taken aback by the pontiff's words, a little reticent at first instead of coming out with the statements that he made. Some kind of theological cognitive things going on here.
ReplyDeleteSure, he even joined with that theological giant Pat Robertson. IMO, a couple of things- Dolan is personality personified: good natured, joyous, optimistic, etc
ReplyDelete""If the church comes off as a scold, it's counterproductive. If the church comes off as a loving inviting embracing mother who periodically has to correct her children but who first and foremost loves and embraces them, then we're going to be effective,"
he said. He probably dislikes being seen as a Pat Robertson co-conspirator, so
accentuating the positive can be a cover for the hard underlying no-nos. The other
thing, is playing the part of the good soldier: the chief says so, and goldang, I'll
support him. He has that ability...I disagree with him, but like him, which is more than
I can say for Santorum, Ralph Reed, Wayne Lapierre, Ted Cruz and their cast of
supporting actors.
So does this mean he's gonna listen to the Boss and drop his feud with Obama?
ReplyDeleteApparently, since he has shown no inclination to join the robed troglodytes at the Most Holy Family Monastery.
DeleteDo the words 'family' and 'monastery' really belong in the same sentence??
ReplyDeleteOnly if one believes that 'wasting seed' is against nature as intended by the almighty, while the entire grain bin at the monastery sits useless and the almighty thinks that is just swell. I reiterate: troglodytes.
DeleteDolan is a company person. Why do I get the feeling nobody really liked Benedict?
ReplyDeleteYes yes Bro. Michael Dimond from upstate NY I believe. I once got an unsolicited video in the mail from his group/organization so I popped it in the ole player and watched it one evening. His words or the film's words say that Ratzinger is really the Antichrist and the most evil person in History. That's history folks as in Nero, Caligula, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot...now La Salette which led to Fatima states at the end of the prophecy that "in the Last Days Rome itself will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist..." so you can understand the Church not fully revealing and discussing this aspect esp. since the Mel Gibsonites and Dimond people would get ahold of that and twist it all around. They say the Third Secret reveals the identity of the Antichrist, it could be Honey Boo-Boo for all we know.
ReplyDeleteNever understood monks. An acquaintance had a brother that became a
DeleteBuddhist monk someplace in the states. He got a woman monk knocked up and they were both expelled. He became a bread salesman and later returned to the monastery. Not sure of what became of her. I'm guessing the monks don't spend a lot of time texting and twerking.
Francis has a tablet though. I saw a picture in Catholic New York a few months back of some clergy showing him how to use his new mobile device. I'm guessing he gets religious popups and ads on the side all the time.
ReplyDeleteThe intersection of holy duty and electronic communications can be a problem.
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic church HAS been moving with times. Case in point is the small minority (primarily St. Pius X) still doing a Latin mass not to mention the mass itself.
ReplyDeleteI think Benedict definitely had a bias for the Latin Mass. I actually think if we kept some of Catholic tradition we'd be alot better off. Take fasting on Fridays, no longer a rule but back in the day Catholics fasted on every Friday throughout the year and ate fish. I think if we still did that it'd cut into our national obesity problem.
ReplyDeleteCoupled with all the sitting, standing, and kneeling....you might be on to something.
ReplyDeleteFrom the National Health Library, we note:
ReplyDelete"Like second hand smoke, pollutants emitted from incense burning in a close environment are harmful to human health. As mentioned above, particulate matters, and some of volatile organic compounds, musk ketones, musk xylenes, and musk ambrette, aldehydes, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, diethylphthalate (DEP) are toxic to the lung and allergenic to the skin and eyes"
Ego facultate mihi ab Apostolic Sede tributa, indulgentiam plenariam et remissionem omnium peccatorum tibi concedo et benedico te. In nomine Patris, et Filii, + et Spirtus Sancti. Amen.
You have a point, sometimes my allergies are worse in church.
ReplyDeleteSteven Colbert reporting on the high fecal matter in Holy Water opined that was why they use so much incense. Colbert is a Catholic in good standing because I have seen Cardinal Dolan on his show a couple of times.
DeleteHaven't heard much from Francis lately. They lock him in his room?
ReplyDeleteHe just said something the other day about reforming the Vatican. I agree, why does the Church have to be so Rome-centric?
ReplyDeleteFrancis has his own car he drives around in. Wonder if he listens to Rush?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Francis with his talk has already made some powerful enemies. Politically Francis strikes me as definitely leaning in a socialist direction and he would probably get agita from most of what Rush says.
ReplyDeleteProbably has made some powerful enemies. What can they do?
DeleteJesus was a socialist.
DeleteThe Vatican Bank just issued their first annual report ever.
ReplyDeleteI googled the topic once, goes all the way back to the days of Il Duce. May as well have Jon Corzine run it.
ReplyDeletePope that drives his own car...he must be a mover and shaker.
ReplyDeleteWell he set a date next spring for two major canonizations. Again I get the case for JP2 but John23?
ReplyDeleteDunno. IMO, Cyril of Alexandria was greatly over-rated.
ReplyDeleteIt's like any Hall of Fame club, it eventually gets watered down.
ReplyDeleteFrancis seems unusually quiet the last few weeks. Bound and gagged in the curia?
ReplyDeleteSaty brought up ex cathedra statements, I don't think this Pope would do that or is capable of that. He's more the adlib type, the think out loud type and interpret it how you will. I say he should blog:)
ReplyDeleteHe is one of the more unique individuals to occupy the throne of Peter.
ReplyDeleteSomewhere Ayn Rand is rolling over in her grave.
ReplyDeleteThat somewhere isnot far from you . Ya may want to stop by up there, shed a
Deletetear and be sure to leave a cash offering. Changing to Ayn from Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum was a capitalistic move to save on engraving...
Holy selfishness Batman! I'm now at the Greenburgh Library and the Kensico Cemetery in Valhalla is only a hop skip and a jump away. She obviously had the funds for a nice grave but I wonder how she felt about Potter's Field.
ReplyDeleteYep, about 5 miles up 100A. Heck you could walk. Probably have to stand in a line of libertarians, though.
DeleteI kinda prefer Babe Ruth's grave at the nearby Gate of Heaven. Folks leave empty beer cans on the top of his headstone. Sal Mineo also buried here. Not that I'm into cemeteries but my friend and I had nothing to do one day so we walked into the cemetery office and asked for the Celebrity Section.
ReplyDeleteBack in the mists of time, bones of saints were considered holy relics, and
Deleteany church worthy of its name tried to get a shin or wrist. One time on the BBC series 'Blackadder', he got appointed Bishop and was doing inventory "Let's see, we have 12 thigh bones from St. Andrew...."
It's a part of Church practice I'm aware of but uneasy about. I love the ones where there's a traveling holy skeleton part, could be a thumb or a toe bone, coming to a town near you and they advertise it in the church bulletin.
ReplyDeleteI guess the Pope is not happy with fracking . Wonder if the Vatican faucets are catching fire?
ReplyDelete