I kept nodding off at around 9:30 last night but I really wanted to stay up. I persevered and caught the first half of the Patrick Swayze interview and whenever I hear these things in the news I say a prayer of course like everyone else. I believe in God but I'm curious about Him, He seems so laidback. Let's say you're God and so naturally you have the divine power to cure people if you choose but in the vast majority of cases you decide not to, WHY? Just look at the history of the power of prayer and you wonder at the aloofness of it all. Now there are cases compiled by the Church, documented miracles but these seem to be blue-moon moments and why them and nobody else? if nothing else more miracles would certainly mean a revitalization and reinvigoration of faith no?
OR is this a false criticism of God, a false reading?
Good question. Perhaps another of God's problems ?
ReplyDeleteMiracles are by definition inexplicable, and rightly so, who are we to know or understand the works of God? Also, Jesus suffered, who are we to complain about suffering? God did not prevent his only Son from suffering a very terrible death. And if miracles happened everyday, then they wouldn't be very miraculous, would they?
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't mean I don't question things, like my daughter's friend who has cancer, or the 6 year old in a neighboring community that died two years ago from a brain tumor. Since I know these stories intimately though, I can say that both families live their lives together to the fullest, and have an amazing amount of faith in God and love for each other. And both families have become fund raising advocates to try to help others that may be in the same situation now, or could be in the future. It is amazing and inspirational to know both of these families, and the young girls with the cancer.
BB welcome and I knew you'd chime in. I thought of when you said you're neither spiritual or religious and this is what I'm getting at. If God wanted to change you and people like you around wouldn't He perform more miracles? I'll get to Beth's comments in a minute since my views have evolved on this but it seems to me the Church has what I call a theology of suffering almost like suffering is not only valuable but necessary in and of itself, not that it can't have value but it's a theology of suffering just the same. I'm beginning to question God more or at least our notion of Him. OK now to Beth...
ReplyDeleteYours is a common defense of religion but I can no longer worship a cryptic God, either cure everybody or don't cure anybody. Sometimes when there's a tragic situation like a multiple car crash some lone survivor will say something like "God's looking out for me" or "must be a reason why I was spared." Oh, and what about the others? I can no longer blindly pray to a seemingly indifferent God, at least that's not my notion of Him. So re disease what does this word "incurable" mean? that something is incapable of being cured or the cure hasn't been found yet? What if all the solutions lie in Nature? I've less a positive view of the cancer establishment than you Beth but that's ok it's just that when someone comes up with an alternative therapy or approach they label him a "quack" but if I were a quack I'd laugh right back and say "what exactly have you done? so where's your cure?" So after over three decades of the War on Cancer why no cure yet? Now if you have cancer whether you want to go the traditional route of heavy chemo or something else it's your life, I'm pro-choice on cancer yes.
ReplyDeleteSoapster's take:
ReplyDeleteI would say the reason there aren't more "miracles" is precisely because they are written off as such.
In such events, rather than get to the crux of the matter, people opt instead to subscribe some sort of divine mysticism to it.
Like if someone has a form of cancer and then all of a sudden it just goes away.
"Why God answered our prayers and cured him of cancer" declare the mystics.
Instead, what exists is something that is abstract within the body; something perhaps we don't yet understand. We should work towards understanding it rather than the former.
It is a disservice to the mind to sacrifice reason to this sort of mysticism.
I do believe in miracles more than you soapie my only issue is why are they so rare but I agree 200% with your when cancer goes away we need to understand just what is happening here better. My only thing about miracles is why are they so selective, like this person is more important than that person or more special. I'm also tired of this dead-end we've reached with diseases, either declare that we're at a loss and Muscular Dystrophy can't be cured let's say so we're not gonna have you waste your money by sending it in anymore OR get a better team of scientists and thinkers who can get to the bottom of it and this may mean other avenues or approaches, not same-old same-old. In other words periodic status reports and honest ones, we deserve better. When you get older you get more cynical at least in Z's case but I like to think my money is really working and making a difference.
ReplyDeleteNow when people say a certain disease is incurable that imo is not consistent with the idea of a loving God, we deal with the hand we're dealt but I don't think we were meant to suffer put it that way. Some people feel there is a common denominator with disease but dunno, it would sure make it easier to find cures though. I think the cancer industry is in a kind of rut, it's always the harshness of chemo and radiation because I think we don't have any other answers at the moment but would every advanced civilization go with such a route to fight cancer? Let's say the ancient Egyptians were still around or the Babylonians to offer their knowledge would they come up with something else? I've always felt there is a cure to every single disease on earth, if anything it helps to reconcile my faith with reason. One thing I disagree with Patrick Swayze though during his interview is when he said about people who claim they've come up with cures for cancer if they really did "then you'd be famous and rich so shut up." I'd look at it again though, sometimes someone goes up against a kind of encrusted thinking and this applies to every field including medicine so it's best to approach things with a fresh mind and give everyone a fair trial. You hear about shark cartilage, apricot seeds, hydrazine sulfate etc. but then again if we can't even figure out tinnitus how are we gonna do the big ones?
ReplyDeleteIt is possible that there is a bit of credulity involved in the miracle thing. I believe the Catholic Church heirarchy is very cautious (any more) in evaluating such in light of modern technological understanding. The
ReplyDelete'old' miracles frankly boggle the modern perceptions. Recall the medieval guy whose beehives were going bad, bees dying off, etc. He
brings home a consecrated host, places it on the hive and the next morning a cathedral of honeycomb
has appeared, replete with flying
butresses, nave, bell towers etc.
So impressed were the bees; so also impressed were the local population. Another hand-me-down from that era is the magical incantation 'hocus pocus'..the middle ages common man's understanding of the Hoc Est Corpus of the Latin mass during the elevation of the host and the moment of transubstantiation..for the illiterate peasants religion and superstition were interchangeable. The established church of the time attempted to
de-emphasize such, as well as the
trade in 'relics' but the vox populi insisted. I dunno..sort of an interesting subject.
I saw an appropriate quote for this topic from Albert Einstein:
ReplyDelete"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though eveything is a miracle."
Soapie seems to fall into the former category. Z-man I thought was latter category, but it seems like you are having a lot of doubts lately, Z.
As for me, getting snowed in today changed my plans, and actually changed my mood. Lots of bad news lately that I have heard, but the snow fell very peacefully and looked pretty, and I know Z-man likes winter best and on a day like today I will agree with him. Having the ingredients to make chocolate chip cookies helped.
:-)
Can anyone go through Life, even the most religious person and not ask the same questions? We have a popular saying going on at work right now, the latest catchphrase (has it reached Ohio yet?):
ReplyDeleteit is what it is.
BB, I accept that there are bona-fide miracles but my issue is with their selectivity. Let's say I have an incurable disease and I wake up all well tomorrow but a hundred other people with the same ailment still have to suffer, might give me a swelled head like I'm a prophet or something. It's one of God's problems as you say, rarely interventionist so just a sliver away from being an impersonal force. I mean people pray their hearts and souls out although I have often heard it said that not enough people pray, sets up some sort of positive energy they say. I'm willing to look at all sides.
ReplyDeleteAnother thought I had on miracles earlier Z-man is that Jesus' first miracle was changing the water into wine. It wasn't some grand cure (although He did throughout His ministry cure many). Point is that not all miracles are the curing of diseases.
ReplyDeleteSome very thought provoking discussion here!
I thought about this last night, weeping statues for instance but I'm more caught up in the curative ones at the moment. The other thought I had was even after Jesus wrought all those miracles the authorities had Him put to death, makes you wonder. Even if tomorrow we embarked upon a veritable age of miracles I still think you'd have your people who would deny it to the ends of the earth. Maybe it's all a moot point.
ReplyDeleteGood point, they would give the credit for the miracle to someone or something else.
ReplyDeleteCome up with a new scientific principle to explain it all. You know they even have a derogatory term for let's say when someone dear to you passes and their spirit visits you to say "hi, I'm ok, don't worry" or something like that. It's not all that common but I do have a few real-life stories I've heard over the years. So the official psychological term for all this is, get this, "grief psychosis" like take all the poetry out of life you know. I hate people like this. A friend of mine claims once to have seen a UFO or two and someone will tell him "don't tell anyone, they'll think you're on drugs." The philosophy I go by now is
ReplyDeleteit is what it is.
"It is what it is" seems like a valid fundamental philosophy. Back when I was a college nerd, we created a local UFO by sending a flashlight across town hanging from a hydrogen ballon. It was what it was....lotta fun. :)
ReplyDeleteThis woman at work said when someone says "it is what it is" it's all about giving up but I don't see it that way. We work with a bunch of nincompoops so the guy in the other department said to me the other day "it is what it is" meaning that's the way they are, they aren't even aware of it and so what do you do about it? just accept it. The many many fans of Beth, Danny and me that we've attracted these last few weeks,
ReplyDeleteit is what it is.